Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
mojoreef said:
Hogwash! The numbers you've specified are irrelevant.
Calcium DEBATE!!
- Thread starter revhtree
- Start date
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Hogwash! The numbers you've specified are irrelevant.
OP
OP
revhtree
Aquarium Advice Addict
Hey this is my Thread!! 
Just kidding
Just kidding
Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Sorry. I'll be glad to discredit the above numbers in another thread if anyone's interested.
mojoreef
Aquarium Advice Activist
Perhaps you should read more...alot more.
Florida reefs
http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/projects/appbmareco.htm
caribean
http://www.sms.si.edu/IRLSpec/Acanth_spicif.htm
Hawaii
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-482/of03-482.pdf
great barrier reef
Hogwash! The numbers you've specified are irrelevant.
Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
He gave you a S.G. of 1.024. So how the hell would you know what the Salinity is without a temperature reference? Your calcium numbers listed above correspond to the salinity level of tap water (1.023 - 1.027) so I don't see how you can relate it to reef Salinity.
"35ppt = 415 calcium" no, it equals 35 parts per thousand dissolved solids, you just don't seem to understand the basiscs.
*edited
"35ppt = 415 calcium" no, it equals 35 parts per thousand dissolved solids, you just don't seem to understand the basiscs.
*edited
mojoreef
Aquarium Advice Activist
LOL. You know exactly what I am talking about. if you want to hold on to the fact I posted salinity instead of SG by mistake on a post you go right ahead.
At a salinity 35ppt the calcium level of balanced SW is 415..
Mike
At a salinity 35ppt the calcium level of balanced SW is 415..
Mike
Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Here's the "real" average Salinity of the Florida Reefs.
Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Look, I appologize about the insult. I responded to your insult and you're right, it's beneath me.
My point was that you listed a chart of Specific Gravity about a parameter you claim to be balanced by Salinity without any reference to temperature.
I submit that ALL of the Specific Gravity measurements you listed can be obtained at a Salinity 35ppt.
So, how can the chart you listed be meaningful without a temperature reference? I'm not ignorant, your chart just doesn't make sense the way you listed it.
Guy
My point was that you listed a chart of Specific Gravity about a parameter you claim to be balanced by Salinity without any reference to temperature.
I submit that ALL of the Specific Gravity measurements you listed can be obtained at a Salinity 35ppt.
So, how can the chart you listed be meaningful without a temperature reference? I'm not ignorant, your chart just doesn't make sense the way you listed it.
Guy
mojoreef
Aquarium Advice Activist
when people take a salinity measure or a sg measure they use a tool that is most likely temperature compensated. its a mute point.
Bang sure you can do that by raising and/or lowering temp, but that was not the jist of what I was laying out. I someone comes out here and say he has a salinity of X or a SG of Y. I am assuming he measured it with an instrument?? From refractometers to hydrometers they are temp compensated. So why all the smoke???
A person asked if his calcium level was correct. I do understand that you want to make sure it is in balance with alkalinity, but you need to have a base reference point to start with. Knowing the salinity gives you that base reference point. From thier you can know what the level should be at to start with. then from thier you can check it against alkalinity.
Mike
MikeS
Aquarium Advice Newbie
Mojo is right....
the correct Ca level is a function of salinity. Salinity, put VERY simply, is a measurement of the amount of certain minerals present in an H2O solution, the common measurement being in PPT.
Within this measurement, there are many different elements and compounds, all exisitng in a "balance" with one another. This balance is very similar throughout the ocean, reguardless of variences in salinity.
Most reefs average 35 ppt salintiy...but this varies from 33 to 37 ppt depending on the area, season, tides, ect. As salinity rises and falls, so do the levels of individual elements and compounds. But these elements and compounds still maintain a basic balance.
NSW has an average Ca level of around 380ppm.
Two reasons you see higher levels recommended. Increased coral growth and a Ca "buffer zone" to compensate for Ca depletion. There are however risks with running higher Ca....namely chemical imbalances in the tank. Any parameter that rises above the average has the potential to create an imbalance.
IMO you are better off trying to keep your levels balanced based on SG than trying to simply shoot for a specific number. Balance is the key....
MikeS
the correct Ca level is a function of salinity. Salinity, put VERY simply, is a measurement of the amount of certain minerals present in an H2O solution, the common measurement being in PPT.
Within this measurement, there are many different elements and compounds, all exisitng in a "balance" with one another. This balance is very similar throughout the ocean, reguardless of variences in salinity.
Most reefs average 35 ppt salintiy...but this varies from 33 to 37 ppt depending on the area, season, tides, ect. As salinity rises and falls, so do the levels of individual elements and compounds. But these elements and compounds still maintain a basic balance.
NSW has an average Ca level of around 380ppm.
Two reasons you see higher levels recommended. Increased coral growth and a Ca "buffer zone" to compensate for Ca depletion. There are however risks with running higher Ca....namely chemical imbalances in the tank. Any parameter that rises above the average has the potential to create an imbalance.
IMO you are better off trying to keep your levels balanced based on SG than trying to simply shoot for a specific number. Balance is the key....
MikeS
Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I concede that Calcium should be balanced with Salinity, but not with S.G. I don't believe it's a mute point nor do I believe it's splitting hairs.
Just seems odd that when I tested water in the Carribean it could be so unbalanced.
Temp = 86.4
Salinity = 35ppt
Calcium = 420ppm
ALK = 2.8Meq/L (late afternoon)
Depth = 15m
The S.G. would be around 1.023 had I tested it according to the conversion chart I use. According to the above chart the Calcium level should have been 367. Granted it's not the most productive reef in the world but the descrepency seems significant.
Mike - What are the Florida reef parameters? You seem familiar with that area.
Just seems odd that when I tested water in the Carribean it could be so unbalanced.
Temp = 86.4
Salinity = 35ppt
Calcium = 420ppm
ALK = 2.8Meq/L (late afternoon)
Depth = 15m
The S.G. would be around 1.023 had I tested it according to the conversion chart I use. According to the above chart the Calcium level should have been 367. Granted it's not the most productive reef in the world but the descrepency seems significant.
Mike - What are the Florida reef parameters? You seem familiar with that area.
Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Mike - I edited out my rude comment to you, again, I appologize.
Guy
(note to Guy - Don't continue a debate after spending 6 hour shopping with the wife)
Guy
(note to Guy - Don't continue a debate after spending 6 hour shopping with the wife)
MikeS
Aquarium Advice Newbie
At 35 ppt, SG should be around 1.026., Ca around 400ppm. Salinity can be determined by SG vs. temperature, depending of course at what temperature the device you are measuring SG with is calibrated.
MikeS
MikeS
mojoreef
Aquarium Advice Activist
apology accepted and I have done the same.
Again hobbists use one of the standard instruments to figure out salinity/sg. Refractometer/hydrometers are temperature compensated, so when someone tells me that they have a salinity of X I assume they used an instrument to measure it.
The reason used SG was that it relates directly to salinity if one of the tools above are used. In listening to the original question it did not seem to me that the person was a very advanced reefer or I would have approached it differently.
Running High calcium levels does not make corals grow faster. It makes them deposit calcium onto their skeleton more as a function of being able to multiple cells. allot of folks run high levels and see gains in the height of the corals, they assume that because other do it and tell them to do it that it is a good thing to promote faster growth. In reality they are stressing the corals, taking away from their overall energy budget and making them more susceptible to crash or rtn or bleaching. Once a person knows both sides of the story its up to them to do what they want to do. but they should always know the pros and cons.
MIke
Bang Guy
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I was burned in the early 80's by the S.G. vs Salinity comparisons so I am admittedly hypersensitive to it.
I started in the late 70's with what would be an archaic reef tank by today's standards. Not enough light, salt mixes that varied batch by batch, but the point is I use a Glass hydrometer and a salinity chart for several years with great success. That's all I had available and I still have that same hydrometer and it's still as accurate as my refractometer but only after referencing the chart with the tank temp.
The neatest thing was invented, the swing-arm hydrometer. I had heard about them but didn't get my hands on one until sometime early 80's as I recall. I found it to be really easy to use. After slowly killing most of my inverts (the fish were fine) I realized that the swing arm couldn't make the same measurement from one day to the next and was about as useful as testing the water with my finger. I just went back to the glass hydrometer and it wasn't until last year that I finally broke my glass beaker (to hold the water for the hydrometer) and bought a refractometer. WOW, what a great feeling to join the 21st century
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals claimed the swing-arm I purchased was auto temperature adjusting. I found that not to be true.
Have improvements been made to the swing-arm hydrometers?
My thrust here is that I believe hobbiests should be concerned about not using S.G. and Salinity interchangeably. Especially the newer hobbiests. I defer to your coral knowledge and how important salinity maintenance is for them. My specialty is tropical bugs, the ones that keep our marine microcosms functioning properly. In my world discussing Salinity solely in terms of water density doesn't cut it and is a good way to damage the critter populations of a successful reef.
I just used a real ****-head way of trying to get my point across at first.
I started in the late 70's with what would be an archaic reef tank by today's standards. Not enough light, salt mixes that varied batch by batch, but the point is I use a Glass hydrometer and a salinity chart for several years with great success. That's all I had available and I still have that same hydrometer and it's still as accurate as my refractometer but only after referencing the chart with the tank temp.
The neatest thing was invented, the swing-arm hydrometer. I had heard about them but didn't get my hands on one until sometime early 80's as I recall. I found it to be really easy to use. After slowly killing most of my inverts (the fish were fine) I realized that the swing arm couldn't make the same measurement from one day to the next and was about as useful as testing the water with my finger. I just went back to the glass hydrometer and it wasn't until last year that I finally broke my glass beaker (to hold the water for the hydrometer) and bought a refractometer. WOW, what a great feeling to join the 21st century
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals claimed the swing-arm I purchased was auto temperature adjusting. I found that not to be true.
Have improvements been made to the swing-arm hydrometers?
My thrust here is that I believe hobbiests should be concerned about not using S.G. and Salinity interchangeably. Especially the newer hobbiests. I defer to your coral knowledge and how important salinity maintenance is for them. My specialty is tropical bugs, the ones that keep our marine microcosms functioning properly. In my world discussing Salinity solely in terms of water density doesn't cut it and is a good way to damage the critter populations of a successful reef.
I just used a real ****-head way of trying to get my point across at first.
