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Old 06-18-2003, 08:10 PM   #11
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Hoops I would love to debate you on your statement Its a Physical impossibility for it not to become one. Even the so called DSB guru Dr. ROn says it will. I dont want to hyjack this thread but purhaps if you feel like a good friendly debate I would love to talk it over with you.


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Old 06-18-2003, 08:16 PM   #12
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I would love to see you guys debate, and I am not discouraging it. However, It will be a endless debate as I have seen so many times. The only thing I have learned for sure, is that niether side of the debate have any "hardcore" evidence to base their argument off of. I would love to see someone prove the point beyond a shadow of a doubt, however this is yet to be done by anyone, including Doctors and chemists.
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Old 06-18-2003, 08:29 PM   #13
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Ok, I'll get in on this:

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The only thing I have learned for sure, is that niether side of the debate have any "hardcore" evidence to base their argument off of

I have to agree with MP. I have read so much my brain hurts and it is true, there is no conclusive evidence either way. I have read Dr. Ron's articles and have seen none of them that ended in saying that DSB's are bad for future. He always refers to them as having the possibility of OTS. I don't think Dr. Ron is the ultimate authority on them either. You show me one DSB with the proper amount, or as close as you can get to all of the detrivores and inverts you should have, that crashed because of the DSB in itself. I don't think you will find one. I don't mean because of anything else either. It has to be a direct impact from the DSB. I still don't think you will find one.
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Old 06-18-2003, 09:18 PM   #14
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I here ya. I am not a big believer in OTS either. and I dont really believe that a DSB will cause you tank to crash. However it will eventually stop working. A DSB only processes Nitrogen based products. Where does everything else go???? straight to the bottom. As it goes thier it begins to fill, as it fills you loose your arobic zone. Lose that and the bed just stops working. Its really just physics. How does it take, well that all depends on your bio load and feeding habbits. I have seen many stop working, so has Ron.

Proving it easy but I have also seen many of the endless threads, so no problem I dont want to distrupt the board.


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Old 06-18-2003, 09:24 PM   #15
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I personally don't have a problem with the debate. I don't think anyone will convince anyone else, but I think having both sides of the argument out there will be beneficial to all. It gives the hobbyest the info needed to make their own decision from an educated standpoint.
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Old 06-18-2003, 09:59 PM   #16
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i agree rr it is a debate i am following closely so that i can make the best informed choice possible...thanks for the fair honest no name calling debate
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:22 AM   #17
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I think it is virtually impossible to provide any clear conclusions of a DSB that suddenly "stops working". There are too many variables that would need to be described that could cause a problem or failure to occur in ANY tank setup. Personally, I don't believe as timbo stated that you can identify a DSB crash as being related to the DSB itself unless there was an inadequacy created by the hobbyist. I think most of these crashes have been unfairly labeled on the DSB when there is a much more definitive cause in a lack of bio-diversity, overstocking, overfeeding, etc.

While I give a lot of credibility to Dr. Ron for his invertebrate studies for which he is educated on, I do not follow most of his other speculations that he has created for the hobby as I have seen several without any merit. As I stated before there is absolutely no credible evidence or study proving that a deep sand bed will become a "sink". And there is also no evidence that is can last forever. However, I look towards the success of people like Rob Toonen who have successfully had DSB's in their tanks as old as 16 years, as well as friends' tanks that are approaching 10 years.

If their is in fact a problem with an end material that has nowhere to go, then indeed EVERY system will eventually fail. This is assuming that some end result indeed gets bound up in the substrate, rock, and animal tissue. If anything, I feel most secure with the longevity of a DSB over others because there is such a diversity of animals consuming the different forms of matter in the tank. My oldest DSB is approaching 2 years, still young by some accounts, but I see no evidence of any future problems. Time will tell if this will hold up, but until it happens in my own tank that I know exactly what went on in, I am not going to lend any weight to anyone else's anecdotal evidence stating the contrary.
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Old 06-19-2003, 12:13 PM   #18
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Can you tell me of viable alternatives that are guaranteed to filter my tanks and never crash or outlive their usefulness. (I am not being sarcastic incidently, this is a legit question)
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Old 06-19-2003, 12:31 PM   #19
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Sure, a complete filtering station. one 4 times the size of the main tank. Something like Sea World?

I don't really know the answer to that question, I was just thinking at the time about the major aquariums and how they maintain their inhabitants for 20 or more years...
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Old 06-19-2003, 01:04 PM   #20
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I believe the best answer to that is simply, dilution. There filtration systems are larger, but to my knowledge they are just more efficient, yet producing the same end result. The difference is the amount of water they contain. For example, EPCOT's aquarium is estimated at about 6 million gallons of water turned over every 2 1/2 hours. As Anthony Calfo explains, "dilution is the solution to pollution."

Until we are able to do this or have a system which completely exchanges the water as some coastal aquariums do, I feel the safest with a DSB right now.
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