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Old 06-20-2003, 12:51 AM   #31
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I'm just asking for the scientific proof that they will fail, not scientific theory.
Seems hard to prove a negative. How about some persuasive evidence. From what I've seen that's all either side has, persuasive evidence. There is no Scientific proof that it won't fail or that it will. Seems all there is is evidence (antecdotal) for either side.
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Old 06-20-2003, 10:50 AM   #32
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Which is exactly what I am saying. If there are no results from controlled experiments, then it should not be stated what is GOING to happen. We should be talking about POTENTIAL limitations, etc. but it should be clear that it is not fact as is currently being presented. It's a best "hunch" which is fine by me, just not my opinion and certainly not fact.
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:31 AM   #33
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The idea of a DSB becoming a "sink" is completely untrue and has no factual evidence supporting it.
This was your opening line in this thread, perhaps both sides should avoid things like completely untrue and use words like speculation...IMO, neither side can prove it's point. What I want to see is why there is no end product. For instance a fish defecates, there is left over food etc...all this settles to the sand bed. We have critters to eat this food, they create waste, there are other critters to eat this food, etc...There is always waste created and in a closed (limited) system like an aquarium, we will simply run out of the diverse critters to continue to eat the waste. Certainly the Nitrate produces by the nitrifying bacteria is released as nitrogen gas, but what about the other waste?? What happens to the end product there?
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:48 AM   #34
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What happens to the end product there?
It rots. Just like anything else in the world that is left sitting for a long period of time. The thing that I see in my tank is, after some time it either disappears, or it is taken into the sand bed by other critters. In any case, it seems that it turns to nitrate. One more thing, in doing some biological studies, isn't it true that ALL organic compounds including US, contain Nitrogen based substances ?
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Old 06-20-2003, 12:19 PM   #35
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it seems that it turns to nitrate
It can't. If it broke down to nitrate only, it would be nitrate to begin with, there is another or more byproducts from the break down. One thing is gact, Matter can neither be created nor destryed, only transformed. So what happens to the other stuff? One of the byproducts of all this is sulfide, from what I have read...What in our sandbed eats sulfide?
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Old 06-20-2003, 01:08 PM   #36
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This was your opening line in this thread, perhaps both sides should avoid things like completely untrue and use words like speculation...
Good point, it should rather state that the "sink" theory is not proven, not that it is completely untrue which implies it was proven not to happen
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Old 06-20-2003, 01:20 PM   #37
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One of the byproducts of all this is sulfide, from what I have read...What in our sandbed eats sulfide?
I assume you are talking about hydrogen sulfide. To my knowledge, putrification which creates H2S results from not having enough detrivores moving through the system. I don't think a DSB consumes sulfide, but is rather key in prevent it from occurring when properly set up.
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Old 06-20-2003, 06:12 PM   #38
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I assume you are talking about hydrogen sulfide. To my knowledge, putrification which creates H2S results from not having enough detrivores moving through the system. I don't think a DSB consumes sulfide, but is rather key in prevent it from occurring when properly set up.
Dead wrong my friend. In a DSB thier is a carbon cycle, a nitrogen cycle and a sulfur cycle. In the sulphur zone no critters exist beyond bacteria. This is the way it works.
aerobes predominate initially, because oxygen inhibits nitrate and sulfate reduction. This means that the presence of oxygen will not allow the reduction of Nitrate or sulfate, thus your areobic zone
facultative anaerobes begin to predominate as oxygen concentration decreases. Facultative are bacteria that can fix both oxygen and nitrate. This this the begining of the anerobic zone. Critter in this zone are only the worms mentioned above, and the occantional visitor.
Anaerobes predominate when oxygen is exhausted and fermentation products (hydrogen, organic acids) accumulate. Now we are in the anoxic zone. Through the fermentation of hydrogen and organic acids it crerates its own anoxic zone. No critters with the excetion again of the worm, passing through.
Right behind these bacteria are the iron or manganese reducers (Shewanella) predominate at first. then behind them are the nitrate reducers (Pseudomonas, etc.). behind them comes sulfate reducers (Desulfovibrio, etc.) , because they compete better for hydrogen than methanogens (but only if the sulfate concentration is high) and then finally carbon dioxide reducers (methanogens) , after the sulfate supply is exhausted.
This is the cycle that is created in a DSB, this is the cycle that is created in the wild. You have to understand that nothing goes away, As Keven said it is merely chemically altered to another form. Ie. A chunk of food hits the sand bed. If critters such as pods, worms and such comsume it they will take out about 10% of the matter and poop out 90%, But then in turn will also poop out its own form of Poo. Ok so the critters are thier for 2 reasons One to stir The AREOBIC zone and to process the Poo to small more accesable particuls for bacteria. Now this is where the process of reduction start. The waste is in the form of Ammonia, the first form of bacteria to have access to it only want a small portion of it, they remove protons and electrons in order to give themselves the energy they need to live. What is left is a chemical make up we call nitrite. Next steps up another form of bacteris that will once again chemically alter the formula to what we call Nitrate. The above process occurs in the Oxygenated zone. Next comes the anerobic zone. The bacteria here can live in oxygenated water or no oxygen water. When in the oxygenated water it will fix oxygen for energy, when the oxygen is depleted they now can fix nitrates for their energy source, a byproduct of this is nitrogen gas (the little bubbles you see in your bed). thats your nitrogen cycle.
A sulphur cycle also starts in your areobic zone. Bacteria such as Beggiatoa, Sulfolobus, Thiobacillus and Thiothrix but this is mostly an oxidizing process because of the presence of oxygen. Most of the altering or reducing occur once again in the anerobic zone. This cycle works the same way as the nitrogen cycle. One bacteria altering the compound to another, then off gassing. Your tank is bacteria driven, the bugs do nothing more then to move sand and chew down the poo.
What I find funny is that you say it is not proven because no one has starred at a hobbist tank and done the study. Even though it has been studied to death in the wild and in labs and is common proof. Its like saying that even though a crash test dummy was mangled in an accident I wont believe it unless I see it in my car???

You say you dont want to know about marine biology, well enough said then, Marine biology is what makes it possible to keep a reef tank if you dont want to know how it works, then this conversation is truly pointless and we can all wait for the next fad to come out.


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Old 06-20-2003, 06:42 PM   #39
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You say you dont want to know about marine biology
I never said that, and I don't particularly care for the tone in you are starting to bring to your replies. As for the sulfide, I made no mention to not having a sulfur cycle, but rather I was referring to the fact that there should not be a buildup of hydrogen sulfide.....again why I asked if that is what he was referring to. All I have asked for is one documented source of a tank crash that was clearly linked to the sandbed "sink" theory. I find it odd that if it is so cut and dry why this is evidently not available.

You send me a pm hoping that we can have a nice debate *This portion of your reply has been edited, it is violation of the User Ageement you agreed to when you signed up for this forum*. If this is the only way you can "debate" then I will kindly stop replying.
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Old 06-20-2003, 07:15 PM   #40
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Might be time to take a step back and take a breath. I'm gonna close the thread for a few hours, I'll reopen it at 8:30pm EST. This is a difficult area to debate I hope that we can continue this debate later in a calmer tone than it is getting. Please do not view the temporary closng as anything but a cooling off period, there are no accusations to anyone, it's just time to take a step back, have a beer and come back at it later with a more relaxed perspective.
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