conflicting opnions on dsb

[reefrunner69]

Reopened.

 

[loganj]

Well, I have to say I've learned more about DSB's in this thread than in any other I have ever read on any site...you guys should write a book. So, I guess the jury is still out on whether the DSB can become a sink and take down the whole tank and probably will be for a while from the looks of things. My question is: Is there a better way to maintain a reef aquarium? Perhaps instead of having the DSB in the tank, it should be in a separate container? Is there any way to tell or any test that will indicate that DSB problems are imminent? Does anyone know exactly what compound or combination of compounds build up in the DSB that bring about it's failure? I know these questions may have been covered indirectly in this post, but I wanted to ask again in a more direct format. "I don't know" is an entirely acceptable answer. Opinions are welcome. If we aren't nice to each other, I expect the thread will be closed again . Any answers that recommend adding an old tennis shoe to the tank will be deleted and the poster thrown naked into a rubbermaid tub with a mad lionfish .

 

[alrmc4]

loganj i was wondering the same thing will testing for nitrate,nitrites and ammonia cover your bases if they start going up you know you have a problem.are there other tests? very good points were made by all parties, i am still on the seesaw,i just know we all want what is best for our fish.

 

[Hara]

stupid statement...but isnt the ocean one deep sand bed?

 

[reefrunner69]

stupid statement...but isnt the ocean one deep sand bed?

Yes, it is a deep sand bed with no glass bottom, there are also critters and bacterias in the deepest layers of sediment that we cannot have in our aquariums.

 

[d9hp]

In the 2002 annual of marine fish and reef, the 2000 gallon setup has a 12" DSB

 

[mojoreef]

Hoops if I offended I am sorry it was not my intention'

Logan to try to answer your question. Thier are several way to maintain an aquarium and a DSB is definately one way, Bare bottom tanks is another, myself I use a 1 1/2 of CC and thier a several more type and variations, that work just as well. They all boil down to Husbandry (how you care and clean your tank).

Perhaps instead of having the DSB in the tank, it should be in a separate container?

Remote sand beds are a way for sure. I did this for awhile. You have to make sure of a few processes but thier is a way.

Perhaps instead of having the DSB in the tank, it should be in a separate container?

Ok when you feed your tank, or add additives or do water changes (ASW) you add a huge ammount of inorganic particles. It si not a real big problem as bacteria will bind the ions of the inorganic material to its matrix, BUT. from this you will get byproducts. IE. bacteria can not walk up and take a bit out of an Ion, its secretes enzynes that make the ion liquid, then it can do its thing (but know the enzynes are still in thier. some bacteria use microbes to do it, some attach it to thier shells, then shed them. Then all bacteria dies at some point and new are born. So now if you mix all the enzynes, microbes, chelators, bacterial flock (the shells and husks) in with all the other product that dont get processed at all (ie stuff that is not nitrogen based) and particular dust (basically the sand as it melt to micrscopic sizes you get one big stew of bile. This is what builds up. In the wild heavey wave action and tidal flows sweep away this stuff and deposit it into abyssals of mangrove swamps or sea grass beds and so on (these things love the stuff).
Again folks I am not saying that having a DSB will kill your tank eventually, all I am saying is that eventually it will lose its compacity as a filter. At that point you would have to replace it or some how clean it out again (and I dont think you could clean it while it was in your main).

mike

 

[Guest]

Again folks I am not saying that having a DSB will kill your tank eventually

I understand that is not what you are saying...

I have been thinking of a way to do a 5 stage process, but it takes a lot of room...Like for instance:

The main tank, running into a sump, running into a refugium with macro algae, running through a mangrove patch, then through a sea grass bed, and then back to the tank. I think it would work naturally and probably a long time. But, the cost and space that it would take up is enormous...

Keep in mind that the different regions that are to be created will house native creatures to do the cleanup and purification..

 

[ConanTheLibraia]

This has really scared me out of having DSB, I don't think I'd want to have one if it would kill my tank eventually. How are you gonna go about not having your tank be messed up and being succesful?

 

[Guest]

Don't let it scare you, the points are that no matter how you decide to setup your tank, in the long run, you run into a possibility of toxicity and maybe killing off the tank because it is a closed system. Who knows. It is still a debate all over the world..

 

[loganj]

Timbo,
I had similar thoughts concerning the filtration system. The seagrass could be in the main tank though...or where ever the DSB was. It would take up lots of room though.

 

[mojoreef]

Conan thier is no reason to be afraid of it. Its simply just another filter for our tank. As long as you know what its limitations are you can deal with it or decide not to.

Timbo, refugium with macro algae, mangrove patch, sea grass bed all pretty much do the same thing as each other just in slightly different ways. I dont think Thier would be a need to set up 2 redundant systems, but you could if you wanted. ALgae will remove nutrients from your water system, but as with everything they have thier limitations and good things. Maybe I can shed a little light.

With the use of Algaes we all have to be mindful of the plants going sexual and/or releasing the toxins back in the tank. And we have to watch for the algae/calurpa also taking over the tank (been their done that). Let me see if I can shed a little light on the methods you listed.
The use of mangroves has become popular lately. They remove nutrients and have little chance of going sexual (just make sure you remove the leaves if they fall off). thats the plus, the down is that they can be hard to get and a bit pricy. Also they will take a bit of toll on your magnesium level eventually so you should always monitor it if you are using them. Personally I am just about to try them my self
The use of sea grass is another good choice. They are a little more hardy then regular algaes and will not go sexual as much. But like Calurpas they cell structures are leaky. What this means is that...Hmmm ok example..for every 100PPM of nutrients they absorb they leak out about 30% of them constantly. (thats a rough example). This is however not to bad concidering other macro algae. They make a great pods and larvae factories. The shape of the leave and so on really sets the mood for the happy hour. One other pitfall is that they require about average lighting (as do mangroves).
Macro algae. Depending on the type they can really aborb nutrients, however they also because of the cell nature release alot back in. They tend to go sexual alot more easy then those listed above. And when you harvest it you should remove the whole plant, otherwise they will dump alot back in at that time. From experence (torture actually) i would suggest staying away from anything that has holdfasts. Here is some further info on various algaes/calurpas and thier growth rates (the ammont they grow is directly related to thier nutrient uptake). now when viewing this you have to remember to weight the good (ammont they uptake) against the bad (the ammount they go sexual or leach back in)

Halimeda: ~2% / day (10-20 mg/g/d)
Dictyota: ~ 10% (50-100 mg/g/d)
Padina: ~ 10% (75-100 mg/g/d)
Caulerpa: ~ 10% (50-100 mg/g/d)
Thalassia: ~1.5% (10-15 mg/g/d)
Palmaria: ~15% (doubled in 1 week)
Enteromorpha: 20% (7 fold increase in 1 month)
Gracilaria: 6-10% / day


hope it helps


Mike

 

[bizzybeas]

I just wanted to say thank you to all, because this is a most informative thread. I think there is a lot in our hobby that we still do not have answers to. I learned more reading this than in any book. It is good up to date information.

 

[Hara]

hey Tim, I like the sound of your idea, couldnt you do it in a "rack" system?
Maybe have a nice cabinet type thingy built around it and sitting next to the tank?

 

[Guest]

Sure, the reason I say it would take up too much room, is, I was thinking about each section in a 300 gal tub...he he... This would make it at least 1000 gals of water plus the main tank. Lots of diversity goin on.... It would still be a closed system however, I thought of a way to make it like a tidal plane except for it would be once a week tidal flux instead of every 6 hours. See, it is my theory, that the water should go through some type of complete renewal system. I believe it has been researched. however, if you have water flowing from the tank into the tubs, one after another and at the end, drain slowly on a gal meter, you could in turn for water changes drain old water out of the end of the chain and refresh with new water at the beginning all at the same time, producing a flow of fresh seawater through the whole system instead of draining and then filling.. Does that make sense? Of course you couldn't do this on a 24x7 basis or you would go broke. I don't know anyone who live on the beach and has run a 1000ft pipe into the ocean either.. but maybe 50 gals or half of tank volume per week or 2 weeks?


Also, on the DSB theory, why not change out half of the DSB and replace with new every year or so. Wouldn't that take care somewhat of the build up problem? Or would you release too much bad stuff into the water column by disturbing it? I was thinking along the line of how we tell others how to get rid of their CC....Hmmm

 

[mojoreef]

Timbo your concept sounds kinda neat. From what I can see it should work pretty darn good.
On the DSB thingy, alot of folks are looking inot the process you discribed. You would have to becareful not to disturb it very much when you do it. Whats down in thier will do harm. I would not do half at once if it were me, but maybe smaller portions so you dont risk any problems. On a DSB unless yuou have a huge bio load or feed alot, you should be OK for a couple of years prior to having to do this process.


Mike