coffeetwitch
Aquarium Advice Addict
does anyone have an opinion on the subject?
deep sand bed for a 125 fowlr?
- Thread starter coffeetwitch
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Gti_Leo
Aquarium Advice Addict
i do, it won't hurt to have one, a healthier system for your fish makes for happy healthy longer living fish
OP
OP
coffeetwitch
Aquarium Advice Addict
thank you.
leftyfish
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I did a Dsb in my cube and my 72, I based it off a lot of research. I decided for my 194g that I won't be doing a Dsb in display or the sump. I will fill the sump with rock. The Dsb looks messy to me, it helps reduce nitrates, but only if not disturbed, most people like gobies, etc that disrupt the sandbed. There are other ways to reduce nitrates that won't cause potential catastrophic results.
Why I changed my idea on DSB:
1. I had a powerhead fall and create a horrible mess in the sand, if the tank had been any older it would have crashed. Accidents happen.
2. I want to run my tank as long as possible, we are talking 20-30 years, and there are no tanks this old that ran a Dsb, actually some of those people said they could get about 5-7 years and then things would start going downhill.
3. I want a large goby and they tend to eat the creatures in the sand that provide the mechanism for converting nitrates to nitrogen gas.
I have to say, both tanks once set up had zero nitrates after about two months, with over feeding and irregular water changes.
Why I changed my idea on DSB:
1. I had a powerhead fall and create a horrible mess in the sand, if the tank had been any older it would have crashed. Accidents happen.
2. I want to run my tank as long as possible, we are talking 20-30 years, and there are no tanks this old that ran a Dsb, actually some of those people said they could get about 5-7 years and then things would start going downhill.
3. I want a large goby and they tend to eat the creatures in the sand that provide the mechanism for converting nitrates to nitrogen gas.
I have to say, both tanks once set up had zero nitrates after about two months, with over feeding and irregular water changes.
OP
OP
coffeetwitch
Aquarium Advice Addict
why is it that tanks with a dsb do not last as long as those with out? i mean that if one was better than another or what not there would never be the question of dsb or no. you know? kind of like water, if you want a fish you need water. its an absolute.
leftyfish
Aquarium Advice FINatic
coffeetwitch said:
I think it comes down to having to replenish the living organisms, not messing with it (or having a powerhead fall) and just the setup of them in general, there is no real consensus on doing them, so they get setup differently. I really hoped to find a tank that had one long term but I could not.
If you are planning on changing the tank within a few years, don't mind the lost water volume or viewing area, then give it a try. Or, do a remote one in a sump or refugium. Do you have high nitrates?
OP
OP
coffeetwitch
Aquarium Advice Addict
the tank doesnt have any fish yet nor have i started to cycle, so no nitrates at all.
Looks like I'm in that 5-7yr window, my reef tank (with 3.5"-4.5" sandbed) has been running for over 5 years...no issues...yet.
The nitrate to nitrogen gas process in the DSB is performed by microscopic anaerobic bacteria residing in (and requiring) an environment several inches beneath the surface of the sand. Maybe the goby's impact on the process is just disturbence of this oxygen-free environment rather than the consumption of creatures?
mr_X
Aquarium Advice Addict
i've never utilized a DSB for filtration. for this current tank i do, sort of have a dsb. it's 6" of sand, but it's in between a lot of limestone the size of ballast (pics in the build thread). will it cause me problems? we'll see, but it's doubtful since it's only a temporary tank until i can construct something larger. after the winter.
i've heard conflicting info about deep beds. some say that they don't last long (as stated above), then others say they offer excellent nitrate reduction with very little maintenance. they say you must stir the top a bit here and there, so a sand sifting fish would not be detrimental to it...on the contrary, they would be a help, as long as it wasn't an engineer goby or something that digs giant holes and buries corals and rock on a daily basis.
my argument is - why doesn't the sand bottom of the ocean nuke it? it's super deep. shouldn't it be spewing poisons on a regular basis?
i've heard conflicting info about deep beds. some say that they don't last long (as stated above), then others say they offer excellent nitrate reduction with very little maintenance. they say you must stir the top a bit here and there, so a sand sifting fish would not be detrimental to it...on the contrary, they would be a help, as long as it wasn't an engineer goby or something that digs giant holes and buries corals and rock on a daily basis.
my argument is - why doesn't the sand bottom of the ocean nuke it? it's super deep. shouldn't it be spewing poisons on a regular basis?
Gti_Leo
Aquarium Advice Addict
agree with you doug, i am a believe of a DSB because nature has a DSB, when a DSB is properly seeded and is given the right amount of time to be established it can work wonders and last a long time.
cmor1701d has had a DSB in his 125 for years and has even had a power head fall and blow into his sand bed untill you could see the glass bottom with no problems at all.
cmor1701d has had a DSB in his 125 for years and has even had a power head fall and blow into his sand bed untill you could see the glass bottom with no problems at all.
OP
OP
coffeetwitch
Aquarium Advice Addict
so those where it has failed should look into more detail with what caused the problems rather than assuming it was the sand bed? i can buy that.
leftyfish
Aquarium Advice FINatic
kay-bee19 said:Looks like I'm in that 5-7yr window, my reef tank (with 3.5"-4.5" sandbed) has been running for over 5 years...no issues...yet.
The nitrate to nitrogen gas process in the DSB is performed by microscopic anaerobic bacteria residing in (and requiring) an environment several inches beneath the surface of the sand. Maybe the goby's impact on the process is just disturbence of this oxygen-free environment rather than the consumption of creatures?
No the creatures turn the sand and prevent large build up of gases, the goby eats them, therefore decreasing the safety of the dsb, nothing to do with the bacteria except the goby will oxygenate the sand by turning it over too quickly also and kill the anaerobic bacteria. Here is a great article on DSB, one that I used to do my 72g.
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
Has lots of good info.
Gti_Leo
Aquarium Advice Addict
the goby does eat the worms but the worms can burrow below the level that a sifting goby looks. i agree that they goby can eat the worms but i had a blue dotted sleeper and i still had worms living in the sand as well i have nassarius snails that can help turn over the sand
leftyfish
Aquarium Advice FINatic
An aquarium and the ocean are very different environments, why do diseases that exist in the ocean relatively harmless kill the inhabitants of our tanks? Because they are different environments. No one does a water change in the ocean, yet it survives as well. I think comparing a Dsb tank vs non Dsb tank is much closer than comparing Dsb tank to the ocean. I have a Dsb, and like I said before I have no detectable nitrates even with irregular water changes. Show me a tank 10, 20, 30 years old with a Dsb and I would reconsider the longevity. I have searched and searched and can't find one older than 7.5 years. That person, cmor1701d, even told me to do a remote sand bed if I wanted the tank to run a few decades.
Also, the OP was asking about a Dsb in a fowlr system, where there is really no need to have zero nitrates, so for longevity sake, that is why I lean towards no in this case. I would want the space for more fish!
OP
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coffeetwitch
Aquarium Advice Addict
0 trates would be great. but now that i have it in place im thinking the swimming room would be better than letting a water change slide for an extra week.
does anyone have an easy or good way of removing sand?
does anyone have an easy or good way of removing sand?
leftyfish
Aquarium Advice FINatic
coffeetwitch said:
Lol! I think you can syphon or use a container and scoop it out. I agree, I actually waited to order my tank until I decided on dsb or not because if I was doing dsb I was going to make it 30" and put trim around it to hide the yucky look. Do you have a tank build thread?
OP
OP
coffeetwitch
Aquarium Advice Addict
No build thread.
I took out the dsb with a clean dustpan and a tupperware container and carried out in a bucket. Took about 2 hours, top layer was pfs and i had to kind of move it around so i could keep the white sand look. I think I would have kept it if I had a 150. In this 125 I just didn't have the hight and I want the fish to have room to swim in.
Thanks to every one for your input.
I took out the dsb with a clean dustpan and a tupperware container and carried out in a bucket. Took about 2 hours, top layer was pfs and i had to kind of move it around so i could keep the white sand look. I think I would have kept it if I had a 150. In this 125 I just didn't have the hight and I want the fish to have room to swim in.
Thanks to every one for your input.
Gti_Leo
Aquarium Advice Addict
you do not have to do waterchanges in the ocean because nature has its own way of purifying the water, that being by having a deep sand bed that helps complete the nitrification process and also has micro and macro algaes that soak up any organics in the water, not to mention the shear volume of the ocean. which is what most reefers what to achieve these days is an environment that is sililar to the one nature supplies, we place micro and macro algaes in a fuge we place a DSB in the tanks, we use live rock to break down organics. nature also uses its own natural skimmer. nature makes whirlpools giant waves that generate a foamie skimmate that helps remove organics and pushs them to shore and out of the water, and has its own ATO which is rain.
Cornstar
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Would a sanded in freshwater be bad as well? I love the look of a sandbed, mine is only 1.5-2 inches deep and I have a few MTS to help me sift the sand.
