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Old 03-17-2005, 02:13 PM   #11
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Referenced study was out of Norway, the Univ. of Oslo and released about a month ago. It was sound bite "news" on many networks. Google search should reveal it.

Until all books and LFSs take a different path, this issue won't go away.

Ultimately, I hope that the free market will provide a resolution. Let's see, 4 damsels, average price of $3.00, gross margin of say 30% yields LFS a profit of about $3.60. If I owned a LFS, I'd create "Humane Cycle," consisting of some shrimp or other fresh sea mush at a cost of maybe 50 cents, and sell for oh, $14.99.
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Old 03-17-2005, 02:15 PM   #12
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Well... what I don't understand is why get into a hobby that requires time, money, patience, and care for something if you're just going to think about the inhabitants as just "stupid little fish"

Assuming runway is correct, and fish don't feel pain, why not simply just go for a pet hobby with animals that people regard as purely pests... like ants. Or a termite farm. Hey, how about a roach nest? These creatures are commercially driven to be eradicated, and therefore it is not cared if they live or die. This might make things more worth while to you if all you're looking for is a science project.

I don't fathom how you (or anyone) would have such little regard for animals based on how much mental capacity they do or do not have. Does this mean you, or others, would chop down trees for fun and feel no remorse since they do not "think" or "feel"? In reality, what do we REALLY know about intelligence since we as humans cannot even scientifically define the emotions of love, hate, or happiness beyond a trace of elements and muscle movements?

Forget the usage of shrimps vs. damsels... I'm more worried about your attitude and views on a hobby that so much of us love, and think about it as a science test to see if you can prove us wrong and "triumph" by making your fish survive. Forget the study & proof... get yourself some ants and call it a day.

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Old 03-17-2005, 03:54 PM   #13
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Like I said, a Damsel is, ever so slightly, more sophisticated than a lobster but certainly has no ability to feel significant physical pain as you or I perceive pain - much less any emotional anguish which has actually been suggested by some on this board.
Anyone who's ever seen a fish rub on gravel or on a rock knows that it can feel something which is unpleasant for it. Putting a fish through something unpleasant DELIBERATELY while KNOWING that it is totally avoidable is self-centered, unfeeling cruelty. Sadly, this type of egocentrism, along with lack of concern for others (both big and small), and need for instant gratification are growing trends in our society. I choose to treat my animals humanely because I CAN. I think it ennobles us when we treat helpless creatures humanely and with respect.

OK, end of sermon.
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:08 PM   #14
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What if you cycle responsibly with fish? It may take longer, but if you are cleaning your tank every other day then levels shouldn't be harming the fish anyway. But that is just my opinion and I can't proove it. As for saying that you should cycle with fish just because they can't "feel" pain. That is irrelevant. A good reason why not to cycle with fish is because many times this fish dies do to improper care (or a new hobbiest who doesn't know what they are doing). A lot of these fish come from the ocean and since one died, people go out and buy another, more fish shipped in from the ocean, less fish in the natural habitats. So cycling with fish can have a negative effect on the environment by over harvesting fish. I hope that makes sense.
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:14 PM   #15
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This post reminds me of what it would be to go to a PETA or SPCA website and declare that there is nothing wrong with dog fights seeing as wild canines, such as wolves, battle for pack leader status all the time. Kudos to all for keeping cool heads on what could have been a pretty hostile thread.
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:41 PM   #16
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No one says that you "must" cycle without fish. The advice is "You can cycle without fish". I can't imagine that a society will "toss out" an option just because a study (probably in all likelihood was commissioned by fish retailer - who lose money with "fishless cycling") says "it's a myth".

A myth by definition is something that cannot be proven with existing science. Fishless cycling has been proven...therefore, it is not a myth.

The thought of fish not feeling pain is irrelevant. Imagine if your nervous system failed and you could not feel pain. Does that mean you can be subjected to pain causing events or activities without any remorse???
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:09 PM   #17
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Yes, you can cycle with fish, or without fish. Cycling with fish is a lot more work, and risky. In a world where time is money, and convenience is king, why not just cycle without fish and save yourself the anxiety of worrying if you're cycling properly?
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:09 PM   #18
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Well, I certainly got what I deserved, anyhow. Please, I don't mean to solicit anger (although inevitable); I do mean to solicit logical, intelligent arguments that will help others decide with knowledge - I think I did that. There are many of you who posted EXCELLENT arguments against live-fish cycling. Several still post the emotionally based responses that I don't think are nearly as helpful. Please let me clarify.

Quote:
Please provide the location of this 'recent study' so I can read it myself. If you intend to make claims like this, you'd best have citations and references to back yourself up.
Very well: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,147667,00.html

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why spend 10 dollars on aggressive fish that you'll likely want to remove after the cycle anyway? The shrimp is cheaper, doesn't need to be fed
EXCELLENT point and a logical argument.

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We all know fish sense pain. You stab one with a sharp object does it just continue to go about its business or does it react?
We do?? Sorry. The stimulus-reaction observation you’re making doesn’t come from pain.

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A good reason why not to cycle with fish is because many times this fish dies do to improper care (or a new hobbiest who doesn't know what they are doing).
Another excellent point.

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I choose to treat my animals humanely because I CAN. I think it ennobles us when we treat helpless creatures humanely and with respect.
Thank you for a wonderful point.

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that there is nothing wrong with dog fights seeing as wild canines, such as wolves, battle for pack leader status all the time
Sorry, completely out of context.
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Pain or no pain, why spend 10 dollars on agressive fish that you'll likely want to remove after the cycle anyway?
Another logical argument

The point I’m trying to make is that many newbies, such as myself (6 years keeping fish, 5 ¾ in FW), are trying to find good logical, scientific info from you good folks. Comments like “that poor, pretty fish in the ammonia soup is in suffering” is distracting, illogical and just doesn’t help. Intelligent, logical arguments like the many you’ve presented, is what I’m asking to stick with.

I agree with a great many of your arguments and I hope you can see my point. I also hope you can still help me when I ask my newbie questions without too much disdain.
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:51 PM   #19
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The point I’m trying to make is that many newbies, such as myself (6 years keeping fish, 5 ¾ in FW), are trying to find good logical, scientific info from you good folks.
Haven't you alone killed off like 6 fish trying to cycle your tank? Shouldn't that be reason enough to use a shrimp?! Seems to me if I had a track record like that I'd be looking for alternatives to blowing another 6$ on a fish! The seas are poorer as a result. Our future generations will thank you.

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I also hope you can still help me when I ask my newbie questions without too much disdain.
You could always change your user id...

This is a pretty tolerant group, all things considered. I imagine that they'll be pretty lenient on you. Just don't post any more "my 2 damsels died in ammonia soup... what killed them" posts... I doubt you'll be met with much embracing.
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Old 03-17-2005, 06:26 PM   #20
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There won't be any disdain. However we're going to continue to offer our opinions.



My first rebuttle is a quote from the article you gave to back up your point;
Quote:
The Norwegian study, even while saying it's unlikely that crustaceans feel pain, also cautioned that more research is needed because there is a scarcity of scientific knowledge on the subject.
It is also worth mentioning that the study focused solely on invertibrates. Fish do not belong to this category... being that they have a spine and all. So, unfortunetly, the article does little to back up your claims that we're all a bunch of tree huggers! j/k

I know you want to keep things based on science... but you have to acknowledge the fact that the majority of members here see their tank inhabitants as pets. Any pet keeping should go hand in hand with a care and concern for your pet. With care and concern go good husbandry. So to foster good husbandry, we foster care for our pets.
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