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Old 03-17-2005, 08:09 PM   #21
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chimp!!...............sorry, somebody had to say it!!
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:14 PM   #22
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The article referenced doesn't mention cycling at all...or did I miss something?
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:22 PM   #23
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Well, I am a fan of the fact that science cannot solve everything, and sometimes taking advice from people with experience can do wonders. In an earlier post, you had mentioned your bad "luck" with fish.

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Originally Posted by runway1
Timeline is two days to two weeks+. I've lost 1 flame angel, three clowns, 2 LM blennies, 2 tangs, 3 chromis. Each was introduced one at a time except the chromis. They went in as a trio.

Each death had the same MO. Fine for a while and then for no apparent reason - 1-2 days of swimming in the same place and then death. I'm convinced I have some kind is parasite. Water is fine and so are my inverts.
I'm not trying to say you don't know what you're doing, because obviously there is more than one way to do things, but from what I read, that's eleven deaths that could've possibly been prevented by using methods that go against old-fashioned traditions. Could they have been spared with one or two shrimp?

Like it or not, emotions cannot be kept from this discussion since most of us here consider our fish pets, like others have mentioned. The cost of replacing dead fish cannot be the only motivating factor to use shrimp... in the end, unless we as a society stop capturing fish and return them to the wild, captive fish in our tanks cannot survive without our proper care, so we therefore treat them like pets with feelings, because... we can.

The fishless cycle is not a myth. It is proven, it is tested, and it works. It can save the life of a fish, resulting in potentially thousands of saved fishes nation(world)wide if hobbyists were to just use shrimp, or even LR/LS to cycle their tanks. Just out of curiosity, what spurred you to post this thread in the first place? It is definitely a helpful post for people to do research on... but I'm wondering if it was the recent research that came out, or some other motivating factor that instigated this.
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:26 PM   #24
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Yes you're right BillyZ; just an example.

Phyl, I must correct you. I cycled my tank losing 2 out of 10 damsels which, I could argue, is a normal attrition rate anyhow. what you're referring to is my post-cycle problems. Fish I've lost weeks after the cycle.

Speaking of which; I went to a "coral" store who has the healthiest assortment of corals I've ever seen. I described my problem and after several questions she says, "I think you're starving your fish. i only feed brine shrimp...!". Since then, I introduced a group of Chromis and feed them brine shrimp and bada-bing! No fish loss!! Can you believe it??

I've posted my problem on this board three times. I've posted on reefcentral.com as well and nobody asked me what I was feeding. The lady said, "You're loosing algae eaters. Don't introduce algae eaters in a 2 month old tank - there isn't sufficient algae and frozen isn't the same. Try carnivores and feed brine shrimp". 100 posts later, the lady in the store set me straight. Whew!

That's not to say in the mean time, I've exchanged many good pieces of info on this board and rely on its info to a great extent. Just didn't hit on my biggest problem, that's all. BTW, my corals are great!!

I thank all of you for your constructive posts - and criticisms. they each contribute to learning. And Phyl, I listen to your opinions very closely. Thanks again.
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:28 PM   #25
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Jchillin,
Where did I say the article had ANYTHING to do with cycling?? Or, did I miss something?
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:34 PM   #26
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Read my post just after yours. My problem was not a cycle problem. Besides, I'm aggreeing 100% with your arguments.

That's part of my point here; Jumping to conclusions, mis-associating facts, dis-associating facts, etc.

1. My problem was LONG into post-cycle
2. The article IS NOT an association with cycling, it's just a similar example.
3. thepirate is making a poor effort at insults, which is a bit too primative for me.

Let's just stick to the core statements and their context.
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:36 PM   #27
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Ah, from the thread title: "Fishless" cycle myth. I didn't jump to any conclusions, you did say the ariticle was about lobsters.
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:39 PM   #28
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Jchillin,
Seems to be a bad title, maybe. My term "myth" is meant to argue that "pain and suffering" of a fish cycle was myth. Not that a fishless cycle doesn't work, obviously it does. I wouldn't argue that
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:41 PM   #29
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I edited the above post to include the fact that the article had nothing to do with cycling. And I thank you for clearing up the myth issue.
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:44 PM   #30
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Quote:
Dictionary
pain (pān) pronunciation
n.

1. An unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder.
2. Suffering or distress.
3. pains The pangs of childbirth.
4. pains Great care or effort: take pains with one's work.
5. Informal. A source of annoyance; a nuisance.


v., pained, pain·ing, pains.

v.tr.

To cause pain to; hurt or injure.
v.intr.

To be the cause of pain.
idiom:

on (or under) pain of

Subject to the penalty of (a specified punishment, such as death).

[Middle English, from Old French peine, from Latin poena, penalty, pain, from Greek poinē, penalty.]

SYNONYMS pain, ache, pang, smart, stitch, throe, twinge. These nouns denote a sensation of severe physical discomfort: abdominal pain; aches in my leg; the pangs of a cramped muscle; aspirin that alleviated the smart; a stitch in my side; the throes of dying; a twinge of arthritis.
Given the above I say with out a shaddow of doubt that fish feel pain IMO. Its common knowlege what signs of fish distress look like and as one who did cycle with fish before he knew better I can tell you fish are distressed when ammonia levels climb high as is often the case in a cycling tank.
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