I need help starting an aquarium

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gotz_potential said:
So what your insuating, is that an environment without RO/DI is not optimal? That would just be naive.. I'm sure the ocean has an RO unit attached..

Actually the environment the fish are pulled from is mostly devoid of heavy metals and nutrients and that is why it is crystal clear and why we use skimmers to reduce the nutrient levels to mimic nature as best we can along with ro/di units. That and the volume of water per fish is 1000X the volume of a fish tank and thus nature can handle a little pollution much better then we can.

I’m not saying that an ro/di unit is a must but when you consider all the elements that are found in local tap water which is essentially run off from the streets and into lakes like oil, pesticides, environmental wastes, ect then it’s more of a safe guard to filter out as much of the junk that the water treatment plants miss.

I used tap for decades when I kept FW and Brackish fish and did just fine but FW and Brackish fish typically come from the same lakes that have those heavy metals and pollutants and have adapted over centuries.

While having a different view and sharing your experiences is certainly admirable I am still not sure why you get so upset that we recommend a $100 ro/di unit that helps mimic the natural environment which is a pittance compared to the overall costs of maintaining a SW tank.

I have disagreements all the time with bio-wheel threads that state they are nitrate factories and should be avoided completely with SW tank.

I’ve had tremendous success running them for years without any no3 problems and feel people who do have issues with them are usually overstocking/overfeeding their tanks and not performing the needed cleanings that they require.

We all learn a great deal from each of our experiences on what works and what does not work and any opinion is a valued one in my book even if it does buck the “norm”
 
So what your insuating, is that an environment without RO/DI is not optimal? That would just be naive.. I'm sure the ocean has an RO unit attached..

Well, gotz_potential, it might not be a manmade RO/DI system attached, but through evaporation and rain, you could say that water changes are done with crystal clean water...:) Nature certainly doesn't run a pipe into populated areas, dump chemicals into the water, then put more chemicals into it to detoxify it, then suck it up and rain that down over the reefs.

I must say I'm a little surprised by how vicious this conversation has become at points. Gotz_potential, your point has been conceded on many occasions now in this thread. RO/DI water is not necessary for maintaining a successful aquarium. However, there are clear cut advantages to using it. As you stated, a forum is designed for the exchange of ideas and opinions, and so I am surprised that you seem to be taking our disagreeing with you so personally. The way in which you reply it is clear you are angry and/or frustrated while typing, and this is inflaming this conversation above where it needs to be.

I feel kind of sorry for Marty here, he's asking for our help to set up a new aquarium (his first), and instead we have hijacked his thread to battle over what type of water he should use. I believe that with the posts already here, Marty should have enough information to make his own choice, and we will support his decision. Let's get back to helping Marty set up an aquarium that he will enjoy. :)

Paul
 
lol yea its kinda annoying but fun to read;) seeing how expensive its gonna take me longer then i ever thought to get started, but i have this aquasafe tap water cleaner i have been using it in fw and its working fine and it says its good for sw too.

so when curing liverock in a new aquarium im still confused, you dont fill the tank up all the way? just enough to cover the rock and when curing the live rock you have the sand placed.. and the salt and water is supposed to be mixed up 24 hrs before putting it in the tank?

im still a littly shady about the sump, could i build my own? because that would save me aloot of money. and with the lights in the 300 dollar range that kinda turned me off to the idea of getting corral i was thinking 100s or 200s unless i buy an old used one:( lol

i changed my mind again on fish im thinking 2 percula clowns, 1 (or 2) cinnamon clown and is there enough room for 1 more clown??

thanks
 
marty_wolff said:
so when curing liverock in a new aquarium im still confused, you dont fill the tank up all the way?
If using it to cycle your tank then just fill up tank to the top with it in and wait 4+ weeks for your nh3/no2 to peak and get to 0. I would run a ph during the cycle but not light the tank for more then 4 hours a day or not at all to keep algae blooms down. You want to mix your salt for 24 hours for everything to disolve. Straight salt in a tank is toxic.

marty_wolff said:
im still a littly shady about the sump, could i build my own?
You sure can and this thread goes into extensive detail. :D


marty_wolff said:
with the lights in the 300 dollar range that kinda turned me off to the idea of getting corral
A pc setup in the range of 4-6 wpg like the Coralife Aqualight would be adequate for low to medium light corals and run less then $200. Or you could DIY for considerably less :D

marty_wolff said:
i changed my mind again on fish im thinking 2 percula clowns, 1 (or 2) cinnamon clown and is there enough room for 1 more clown??
You have enough room but it may lead to aggression issues when they mature.
 
what do i do with the stuff that comes out of the live and base rock like worms and stuff, so right when i get the rock just dump them in the tank? it doesnt have to be acclimated right? im gonna have alot more questions about this as i get closer to getting it

and the sump still looks a little confusing to make, what does it do exactly? if i ever get it figured out im planning to turn a 10 gallon into one. so you can put an airstone and skimmer in the sump? the part i dont like is that u have to drill holes in both of the tanks or just the one that has the fish in it?:S

how agressive will the fish get and how long will they be "peaceful" with the 2 kind of clownfish im getting what other type would you reccommend?

whats the cheapest kind of light i could get for the oderate to low light?
 
Marty...my apologies for allowing this thread to go off-topic a bit but it is a good debate. Too bad some people tend to take it personally. Maybe they just need a nap.
what do i do with the stuff that comes out of the live and base rock like worms and stuff, so right when i get the rock just dump them in the tank? it doesnt have to be acclimated right?
All of the "extras" you get on LR are refered to as hitch-hikers. Some are good, some are bad. For the most part, worms, snails stars and the like are good. There are some exceptions. It also depends where you get the rock. Carribean LR, for example, does have a higher concentration of those bad hitch-hikers. Leave stuff for now unless you can absolutly ID it as bad. You can just drop the rock in a new tank. It will help you start your cycle. There is no need to acclimate it.
and the sump still looks a little confusing to make, what does it do exactly?
Think of a sump as a mini tank attatched to the main tank. They have several benefits. First, they add water volume. The more water in your system the less it will fluctuate in terms of parameters. More room for error. Sumps also provide a great place to hide equipment like skimmers and heaters. This keeps them out of the main and makes it look better. They also provide a nice place to run chemical filtration.
the part i dont like is that u have to drill holes in both of the tanks or just the one that has the fish in it?:S
I do not recommend drilling into tanks unless you are 100% sure the glass is not tempered. If it is it will just shatter. You can get reef-ready tanks with internal overfows built in for sumps or simply get an external overflow box that hangs on the back of tank.
 
BAD news:( i went to the only store that sold fish tanks and the biggest tank they were selling was a 20 gallon tank so i have no idea what to do...i would buy off internet but you never know what kind of product you will get i have a 30 gallon but it leaks really bad ive tried to fix it but idk how soo it keeps leaking

what do i use to get water to and back to the sump.. besides heater and skimmer do i need to put anything else in the sump?? but the sumps just an empty tank? i looked at the articles and i dont know why i cant understand this

reccomend anywhere i can get a fish tank??

thanks
 
If you have a Walmart close by they stock 55 gal tank/kits for around $150 and some even have bowfront 46 gal tanks.
 
now that youve mensioned it i do remember seeing a big aquarium at walmart !!:D but its been over 6 months and all the other times ive been back they only have 10 glalon ones so should i just go to customer assiasance and see if i can orderone?

i found this picture (in"aquarium owners guide") and they have a "gravity-fed rapid sand filter but ithink its really similar to the sumps ive seen. and with this picture i think i can make my own

also when i was reading it says that its a good idea to have an undergravel filter even if it doesnt cover the whole tank bottom, what do you think of that?
 
Ya, get walmart to order you one.

I wouldn't go with a underground filter. It's older technology and not recommended anymore. LR, LS and a sump/fuge and you'll be set. Not necessary to have any other types of filters. (only if you have a DSB and 1 - 2 lbs LR per gal.)
 
ok just to make sure i know everything i need i wil make a list
tank, lr, sand(mix live with stuff you get from store),light fixture, refractometer, protien skimmer, sump(mayb)

yea the book i saw that filter in is pretty old
 
Here's the list that I recommend for SW startup. Some may disagree, but I think that aside from a couple items such as the gloves, its the essentials. Most LFS will sell a "complete setup" to get you up and running but the fact is there ARE more things that will be needed to get you started and headed for success.
I added the RO on here cause as I said earlier, if one is serious about getting into this hobby and willing to buy everything else, why not spend another $100 and purify your water. Again, this is only my opinion, but I stand behind it and its reasoning.

List:

-powerheads x 3 (2 for main tank circulation, 1 for SW mixing)
-return pump (only if you go with a sump/fuge)
-plumbing supplies for sump
-powerstrips (hardware store)
-gfci (recommended for your safety)
-gounding probe (recommended for the safety of your tanks inhabitants)
-inexpensive mechanical light timers (from hardware store)
-lights
-tank and stand
-overflow (only if you go with a sump and don't have a drilled tank)
-rubbermaid containers for mixing salt water x 2 (1 for old water, 1 for new water)
-refractometer or hydrometer (refractometer is much more accurate)
-sand
-LR
-misc./cleaning supplies: - algae magnet (great for daily glass maintenance)
- algae scraper with handle (good for back of the tank)
- aquagloves (good for avoiding contamination and for handling corals)
- gravel/sand cleaner siphon
- turkey baster (for clearing detritus of LR)
- fish net
-heaters x 3 (2 in main system incase one breaks unexpectedly, and 1 for heating new SW)
-thermometers x 2 (one for main tank and cheap one for SW mixing)
-tests kits (NH3, NO2, NO3, pH needed and Calcium and Alkalinity eventually for reef tank)
-skimmer w/ pump
-salt
-RO/DI

Cheers Marty,
It will be well worth your hard earned dollars as long as the passion is there!!

Ryan
 
should i buy a backround for the tank because theres gonna b ALOT of cords going back. and if i get a sump how can i make the water coming into the tank and the water leaving perfectly equal? and overflows do i put them on both tanks? if i did get a sump could i put the heaters, protien skimmer in there

2 power heads for 1 on each end of the tank do i have them on the sides (facing each other) or on the back.

would it be wise to put 1" gravel then 2" sand on the bottom?

do i need an air pump in there? and what does gfci mean? for the gloves do i just use regular plastic gloveslive teh ones in hospitols

for everything im getting what would b the grand total(with ro/di unit)?

thanks!
 
I would use an acrylic paint and paint your background on instead of sticking a bought background on which will eventually drive you crazy once water gets between it and the tank. Plus, you can choose ANY color that you like, although deep purples, blues and blacks would look the best. In retrospect, I wish I painted my tank black instead of the dark purplish blue, My stand and hood is black and I think everything in the tank would have just "popped" a little more with black.

Your sump will give you the luxury of hiding all the gear. The only thing that you'll need in the main tank is the prefilter box for your overflow, return plumbing from the sump and a couple of powerheads opposite from each other for circulation. Everything else goes in the sump.

Your return pump needs to be rated around the same as the overflow you buy, then having a ball valve after the pump will allow you to tweak the return flow (decrease it) to match the actual flowrate of the overflow. Your overflow will never be faster than your pump. (just the physics of it).

I would use ALL sand (aragonite) as your substrate.

No air pump is needed.

GFCI is ground fault circuit interupter. It shuts of the power if the elecrtricity starts to flow outside the intended path (ie: YOU).

Coralife aquagloves are the ones I was talking about.

Shop around for the best deals you can. It's very hard to give you a price.

Ryan
 
im planning on making my own sump and im still really lost with the overflow, when the pump stops then the syphoning stopps? so if the motor stops you have to recreate the syphoning? is it possible for syphoning to stop by itself that would make a biiig mess.

i understand the returning process. just gives me a headache thinking of how the water will have a constant flow down there :? :?:

with out an air pump how does O2 get dissolved back into the water?

im going to have alooot more guestions :D
 
an overflow is designed with a box that hangs in the tank, usually clear and a box outside the tank. There is a U tube that connects both boxes. The U tube then sits in its own compartment on the outer box. When water is siphoned from the inner box to the outer box, it fills the compartment on the outer box until it overflows into the other section with the drain pipe. If your return pump breaks down or there is a power outage, the level of water drops from the main tank because a back-siphon is created in the RETURN plumbing. This back-siphon is only stopped when the water drops just below the return pipes top lip and introduces air. At that point, the rest of the water in the return line will also fall back into the sump. The siphon on the overflow box is stopped because the display tanks level drops from the return lines back-siphon and the water no longer is high enough to overspill into the inner/prefilter box of the overflow. So...the siphon only continues until the level in the inner prefilter box and the level in the siphon chamber of the outer box is equal. Everything is good and no flooding occurs unless you run your sump level too high and it cannot handle the excess water from the overflow box until its siphon breaks and the amount of water from the back-siphon from the return line. Most people will run there sump just over half full, but the best is just to run your system in the garage or outside and cut the power and see where it gets you. measure the sump level with the power off and add more water until you start to feel uncomfortable watching the plumbing drain when you shut it all off. I run my return nozzles, (2, 90 degree 3/4" pvc fittings) just so that the fittings outlets are completely submerged, that way you minimize the back-siphon and allow good surface motion which promotes gas exchange and that is why you don't need an airstone and pump. lots of circulation and agitation, plus as water drains out of the overflow, it sucks in air.

When the siphon in your overflow stops, its only just balanced between both compartments on either side of the tank. It hasn't been BROKEN in reality. Once everything starts back up, so does your overflow.

Now you may be wondering what if the siphon breaks and not the pump. Well, this is why you have your return pump located in its own chamber within the sump. If the overflow stops, no more water will be entering the sump and the pump will soon pump all the water out of the last compartment and no more water will flow into the last compartment once the sumps system volume drops lower than the last baffle that separates the last chamber. So you will have a small flood (and a burned out pump from running dry) unless you leave enough room in your main tank to accomodate this. Personally, I don't, nor do I think many do. It doesn't look good to have the display water level lower than the plastic molding on the tank. Also, if you get a reliable product like the lifereef overflow, the siphon should never break, so don't worry about that. Just avoid powerhead driven overflows which are worrysome because they utilize the powerhead to keep the siphon from breaking.

hope that helps,
Ryan
 
Great advise ryguy :D I love the detailed analysis you give to each question asked.

Personally I use the “powerhead driven overflows” without any problems.
The one I use is the CPR CS102 overflow hooked up to a Maxi-Jet 1200 venturi to recreate the siphon in case of power outages. It’s a very quite overflow and has worked flawlessly for the last 9 months.

Of course lifereef makes excellent overflows as well :D

If you are worried about flooding then you can get an auto top of switch to turn the pump off. www.autotopoff.com sells them cheap or you could get a Tsunami AT1 unit for just a little more.
 
ok ive been looking on ebay for an overflow box and this looks like the best thing i could find(cheap too) its number 7753503549 so if you could tell me what you think i would appreciate it so with that i need to buy pvc pipes(1"?)and what kind of return pump would you reccommend??

could i also get the ground fault circuit interupter on ebay too?

thanks
 
Marty,
I like your enthusiasum about getting started, I know my self I am a little confused about the sump and all. Good luck with your tank.
 
Great advise ryguy I love the detailed analysis you give to each question asked.

Thanks tecwzrd. Explaining thigs in detail gives me a chance to just think about it and really solidify my growing knowledge in this hobby.


Marty,

That overflow looks like it may be a good deal at that price. The one thing I don't agree with that they said was that if you go to a bigger tank you'll get a higher flowrate. In my opinion the limiting factors that control the potential flowrate are the teeth in the prefilter, the height of the prefilter box compared to the tanks surface water level, and finally the U tube. Size of the tanks surface area, I can't buy as a factor that will determine flowrate. You can only get so much water through the 3 variables I mentioned, it doesn't matter how much surface area you got.

I would recommend trying the mag 7 and throttle it back if needed with a ballvalve. (sidenote: I recommend tru-union ballvalves or placing a union right after the pump and before the standard ball valve.... makes for much easier pump maintenance).

Looks like that overflow comes with a flexible hose for drain it into the sump. You'll need pvc pipe for the return though. Check to see what the outlets diameter measurement is of the return pump you decide on. I would use 1" to decrease the backpressure, which will allow your pump to maximize its potential (minus the head height). I chose to then reduce my outlet size and reduce my 1" plumbing to 3/4" fittings to give more of a jet stream than the 1" fitting would have.

I would definetely look on ebay for a GFCI. Just to give you a little more info on these, bathrooms typically have GFCI power outlets. They are discernable by their 2 buttons(red and black usually) that are the test and reset buttons.

You could either install one of these outlets to replace an existing power outlet, (cheapest option), or buy a plug in one that will just plug into an existing outlet. (I got mine for $25)

Ryan
 
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