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Old 10-08-2002, 07:00 PM   #11
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Also, The main reason I can not run a skimmer is I do a wkly water change... Without this I would be unable to run a tank w/o a skimmer. Tho even if I got a Skimmer I would still do w/c just prolly once every 2 wks instead.


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Old 10-11-2002, 03:30 PM   #12
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The Bigger tank the better I my self started out with a 55 gal because everything I read said go 55 or larger. well as my third reef setup, I started a 20 gal just to see how hard it was to keep. I neglected this tank worse than any other in the house to try to see what all the fuss was about. well I ran this setup for 18 months I have to tell you it was the easiest tank I had. want to check it out, go here 25 lbs LR 3.5" DSB, no skimmer no mech filtration just sand and rock and I grew Macro in the tank, and I over stocked the tank to push it to the limit, After the tank was 9months old i added a 10 gal sump just to see what a diffrence it made. I feel they are no more harder to run as long as you keep it simple. Just my 2 cents. HTH
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Old 10-11-2002, 04:13 PM   #13
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Alf, thanks for your comments.

Would you say that your experence with your first two reef setups helped you out in setting up the 20 gal system?

With 25lbs of LR and a 3.5" DSB you had everything you needed for success plus the experence in water changes and feeding amounts, lighting needs etc.

The last part of of keeping is simple is most important.

I have found each tank I setup saltwater or freshwater is much easier than the last. I am currently on my 4th tank and for the last two tanks I experenced no cycle because I was able to use existing substrate and/or live rock from established tanks to start the new tank.

I have even been playing around the idea of a 5 gal tank for my home office or the dinning room table (if I could only find a way to hide the electrical wires).
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Old 10-11-2002, 05:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf
I started a 20 gal just to see how hard it was to keep. I neglected this tank worse than any other in the house to try to see what all the fuss was about. well I ran this setup for 18 months I have to tell you it was the easiest tank I had.
This is kinda funny, the most successful tank I had, was about 13yrs ago, when I started my first S/W aquarium. It was a 30g run with an undergravel filter. To this day I miss that tank Since then I have only had larger aquariums, until my current reef, 20g. I don't know why, but it has had me the most on edge of any of them, perhaps, it is because of the small tank idea of instability that keeps me fricken with it, which causes problems
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Old 10-11-2002, 07:29 PM   #15
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Don't know how well my 10g tank which I have placed in my computer room is going to do in the long run, but I love it. It is so much fun to sit here and look at my baby. At the moment I am totally fascinated by my new Condy.
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Old 10-12-2002, 03:51 AM   #16
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You've convinced me -- I'll get a smaller tank to start with. I'm still puzzled (although increasingly convinced) by the fact that you are only using live rocks and sand to keep the water clean... Is there a limit to the size of the tank that I can have with no filter or skimmer? 20G? 30G? 40G?
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Old 10-12-2002, 04:02 AM   #17
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Am I correct folks? As Jean mentioned, using a DSB (at least 4 inches) and an ample amount of LR/gallon of SW only to run a system constitutes using the Berlin Method of filtration?

Good success, Jean. The understanding you mention is confusing as a concept. As I understand it, basically it's all about beneficial bacteria and sand sifting critters.

Please, correct any assumption I've made if I am incorrect.

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Old 10-12-2002, 08:05 AM   #18
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Am I correct folks? As Jean mentioned, using a DSB (at least 4 inches) and an ample amount of LR/gallon of SW only to run a system constitutes using the Berlin Method of filtration?
Technically speaking, no it would not be a berlin system. The berlin system calls for a much smaller layer of sand. The berlin system became popular before DSBs became well known or popular. I have no doubt though that had the reef clubs in Germany known of the benifits of a DSB, they would have included it. They were on the right track though...they got rid of the notion you had to have a bare bottom aquarium to be successful.
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Old 10-12-2002, 10:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristan65
Is there a limit to the size of the tank that I can have with no filter or skimmer? 20G? 30G? 40G?
NOPE!

I have seen tanks as small as 3/4 gal use the exact same filtration method as a tank that is 180 gal or larger. As caligal said the key is that the DSB and the LR act as your biofilter. If you where to calculate the biosurface area of a DSB alone you would find it to provide an area for the bactera to live many thousands of times larger than even a wet/dry filter or a mega canister filter. A DSB also has the ability to remove nitrate and that is something that a wet/dry or a canister filter lack given they are naturally higher in oxygen concentrations than the lower levels of a DSB would be.

The key is to not over stock the tank. Not add to many fish at any one time. Allow the tank to properly cycle. And basicly take your time.
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Old 10-12-2002, 11:49 AM   #20
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Would you say that your experence with your first two reef setups helped you out in setting up the 20 gal system?
Well I would have to say that yes exp. always helps but... I went at this as if I had no clue of what I was doing and My wife claimed the tank as her's so she was the overall primary care giver. But before I go into detail, I don't want to give the wrong impression to a Beginner. Do not neglect your tanks but I did this one.

Ok the tank was set up with the intention of how hard is this small system? I set the tank up and never tested it after the cycle. I loaded this thing up with [don't flame me] six fish for the first 9 months. loaded with rescues from the LFS and a few of my captive breed frags. The Lighting was 3x28w pc. No clams , no sps, but everything else you can think of went in this tank over it's 18 months life just to see how corals reacted. There was no sump for the first 9 months. I got board and my wife say's hey all your tanks have a sump I want one! So I added a plain old overflow box[lifereef] and a plain old ten gal tank I had laying around. So you could say the tank was at that point around 25 gals with LR displacement.
I belive the Macro gave it all the nutreint removal it needed. I did 2 gal water changes every two weeks, and topped it off with plain old Ro/DI water. Never added any supplements at all. And I cleaned the glass once a week. that is all I ever did to this tank[well I should say all my wife ever did]

Quote:
Is there a limit to the size of the tank that I can have with no filter or skimmer? 20G? 30G? 40G?
I agree there is no limit. But you must have system in place to remove nutrients from the tank. In my case with my skimmerless 20 and I still run a skimmerless 55 gal that is 2.5 years old, I use natural Macro algae's for this purpose. The trick is a good nutrient export and LR, DSB and good water flow. This will provide all the filtration you need with out all the mech. Stuff. Although it is my understanding that SPS need really clean systems and have always belived that. Well I am testing that theroy out now with 5 captive raised frags in a tank that doesn't produce any skimmate to speak of with a crappy skimmer. So you could say this tank is Skimmerless as well.

Here is a pic of the 20 gal. This was taken after I removed the orignal 6 fish and put in stuff I really wanted. But you get the idea!


But let me also add I studied a min of six months before I ever put water in my first tank. I put my systems togther from other's successes and came up with my setups from That. So my point is can a 20 gal be run as easy as a large system. From My exp. I would say yes. But you must first do the research and come up with your own theroy as to what has worked for others and then aply that in real time. You can not do enough research! But also remember that with a small system, that small changes have big effects and with a larger system that it leaves more rome for error, this is why everyone recommends a tank 55 gal or larger. It leaves more room for error. HTH

And just because I love to show off! here is a pic of my 55 gal skimmerless system. And you will want bigger if you love the hobby so go as big as you can on that fact.
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