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i have about 4 pieces similar to that. some are that beige colour, some are a deep rusty red. i've given them a thorough rinse and when i rub my hand on it small sand sized fragments rub off. is this normal? what is the best way to cycle a SW tank? should i use live rock, or pure ammonia, or small fish?
 
Bump! Still looking for more advice. I think I'd really like to have a star fish or a sea horse. Does that complicate the situation at all? Or is it the same as any other fish?
 
I cycled 1 tank with LR, LS and shrimp, and the other with small amount of LR, LS, ammonia and seeded filter with media from my 55g. Throwing a raw Shrimp in there is easiest IMO cuz you don't have to worry about dosing ammonia every day or how much to dose.
 
BTW, sea horses are best left to a species- only tank cuz they need low-flow and will starve if they have to complete for food cuz they're really slow. You could have a sea star down the road, but the tank needs to be up for many months first so that you have enough for it to eat and it doesn't starve to death.
 
How many frozen shrimp should I throw into a 60g? Acknowledging that I may have a bunch of algae, and will keep up on the maintenance, CAN I use tap water? This question pretty much will make or break this for me. I will not be using RO. If i cant use tap water i wont be doing this. What is the difference between ocellaris and percula clownfish? How important is a quarantine tank? If I am running two ac110's on a 60g do I need a power head too? What media should I put in the aquaclears? How important is the brand of salt? Topfin salt from Petsmart is way cheaper than instant ocean. Is that a safe thing to save money on?
 
How many frozen shrimp should I throw into a 60g?
Don't know. Internet will tell you though.

Acknowledging that I may have a bunch of algae, and will keep up on the maintenance, CAN I use tap water? This question pretty much will make or break this for me. I will not be using RO. If i cant use tap water i wont be doing this.
Absolutely. Just know that water top offs using tap water can't be completely countered by water changes in the long run as pure water evaporates leaving residual minerals from your tap water in the system. Algae growth can be hampered by reducing ambient light on tank and regulating lights on tank to 8 hours per day.

What is the difference between ocellaris and percula clownfish?
Online, liveaquaria.com

How important is a quarantine tank?
I am no expert but for a beginner it seems that a quarantine tank would be one more thing to deal with that could run into it's own set of issues...water parameters, cycling ect. I'd say leave it to the experts and don't worry about quarantine, worry more about what to look for when buying a fish and the proper acclimation instead and don't buy any fish online...reducing time out of tank, ect.

If I am running two ac110's on a 60g do I need a power head too?
Yes. Maybe two. Water flow is important to reduce dead spots and bring water from bottom of tank to top of tank (you won't have this problem from midway up the tank to the surface but will at the bottom half of the tank

What media should I put in the aquaclears?
Not familiar with this product. If it is a carbon holder that is what I would put in it. If it is to hold bio ball type media I would skip it and buy more rock for the tank (it will be your main source of filtration anyway)

How important is the brand of salt? Topfin salt from Petsmart is way cheaper than instant ocean. Is that a safe thing to save money on?
Have never used any cheap salt. Salinity, ph and temp are most critical to make sure stay where they should be in fowlr system. salinity and temp are easily controlled. Ph could drop over time if salt did not have enough buffer capacity, ect. The more I dig into saltwater the more I believe I am keeping water not fish...don't skimp on salt, recurring cost is not substantial but start up can be painful...
 
Thanks for the great info. I will get instant ocean salt and start looking for a power head. So far I'm mentally preparing a stock list. Please tell me if this is too much, or if I could add more, or if I have any compatibility issues or if any of these critters are particularly complex to keep. Overall tdo inverts have any different needs than the rest of the fish?

2 x ocellaris clownfish
1 x yellow tang OR 1 x one spot foxface
1 x purple dottyback
1 x copperband butterfly fish
2 x yellowtail damselfish
1 x debelius reef lobster
1 x blue and pink sea star
3 x spiny star astraea snail
 
NicoleIsStoked said:
Thanks for the great info. I will get instant ocean salt and start looking for a power head. So far I'm mentally preparing a stock list. Please tell me if this is too much, or if I could add more, or if I have any compatibility issues or if any of these critters are particularly complex to keep. Overall tdo inverts have any different needs than the rest of the fish?

2 x ocellaris clownfish
1 x yellow tang OR 1 x one spot foxface
1 x purple dottyback
1 x copperband butterfly fish
2 x yellowtail damselfish
1 x debelius reef lobster
1 x blue and pink sea star
3 x spiny star astraea snail

FYI - you need rock to setup your tank, even if you do shrimp method. I'm not sure it was clear from the posts. If money conscious I would get a few live rocks of a porous nature and the rest dead/base rock for your cycling. The live rock will seed other rock/decorations' surfaces. I read 1 to 2 lbs of rock per gallon was a good level of rock to have in your tank. Basically the live rock surface area is what the beneficial bacteria attach to so the more lbs the more surface area. I have found the live vs base rock distinction to be very loosely explained. Rock can't be live rock unless it is in salt water, dry rock=base/dead rock. Some live rock you get at fish store will have little critters in/on it.

Do not fully stock tank right after cycle. Patience is key. Using the shrimp method you could go 2-3 fish at first adding every couple of weeks would be a conservative but probably consensus approach (based on what I have read). Any cleaners (snails, shrimps, ect) hold off as long as you can before adding them, I could only wait 2 months...


Clownfish - okay, add them at the same time (paired at the store is best)
Tang and fox face - 60g probably too small but varying opinions on this point
Dottyback - I had a bad experience with this beautiful but extremely aggressive fish (ate legs of fire shrimp and hassled my clowns). LFS guy i have respect for said he no longer caries them after too many problems. I will never get another dottyback or take advise from store I bought him from.
Damselfish - I wouldn't. Very territorial fish and won't get along with clownfish. Very difficult to get out of tank once in there as well...

I'll tell you what not to do...don't do what I did/do and drop into fish store with limited options and get something you know nothing about (I no longer take my kids...). Write it down and do some online research and go back if it is still what you want.

Don't know anything about other fish. My reading on this site and others leads me to believe bigger the tank is better and even a 60 is small.... Look at compatibility chart at liveaquaria.com.
 
NicoleIsStoked said:
Thanks for the great info. I will get instant ocean salt and start looking for a power head. So far I'm mentally preparing a stock list. Please tell me if this is too much, or if I could add more, or if I have any compatibility issues or if any of these critters are particularly complex to keep. Overall tdo inverts have any different needs than the rest of the fish?

2 x ocellaris clownfish
1 x yellow tang OR 1 x one spot foxface
1 x purple dottyback
1 x copperband butterfly fish
2 x yellowtail damselfish
1 x debelius reef lobster
1 x blue and pink sea star
3 x spiny star astraea snail

Sorry, but the tanks too small for a yellow tang. :( YT damsels I've heard can be very mean, so personally I stay away from damsels (except my clown of course :) ) but that's up to you. You're going to need more than 3 snails for a 60g. I currently have about 30 snails in my 55g (of course I've built up to this over couple months) and I still have a little green on my rocks and scrub the walls every few days. And I have about 15 hermits too. I know nothing about lobsters, so hopefully someone who does will chime in. :)
 
Having freshwater experience I know that I will need rock to cycle as well as to add fish slowly. Ok so the tang is out, is the foxface and butterfly okay? I'll ditch the damsels, what more peaceful fish could I add for a nice splash of blue? I really wanted a regal tang but my tank is clearly too small. I want to set it up with all fish that will get along nicely as I will not be upgrading my tank at any point. Or if I do, not for many many years. But most likely never.
I've attached a few more pics of the decor I got with the tank. Are these dead rock? Will they look nice in the tank?
I'm going to have to do more research on the dottybacks. I think they're adorable but I don't want my other fish being bullied.
I was originally going to cycle with ammonia but I think shrimp is easier. But will it stink up my living room?
 

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I'm going to hit a couple specific questions here.
Tap Water - The issue is not algae. Sure, some cities have nitrates and phosphates in the tap, but that is not the real issue. Can you be absolutely certain your city's tap water contains no copper, iron, zinc, etc etc etc? Some places even have heavy metals such as lead. Now, odds are that if any of these metals or other compounds are present, the quantities will be miniscule. And as such, you could top off with tap for a year and have no problem, as the metals will bind with the rock and sand. However, eventually, there WILL be a saturation point reached. One day, you'll add a bucket of tap water and a year's worth of copper will explode out of the sand and rocks, killing all the inverts in a day. For every horror story, there are at least two people who will say "That's ridiculous. I've been doing that for years with no problem." but do you want to take that chance? You can get top off water for 20- 40 cents per gallon at a grocery store. I use the Glacier brand dispensers. It is worth it.

Tangs - Yes, yes, yes. Joe Schmoe keeps a regal tang and a yellow in a 30 gallon tank and they've been fine for a year. Of course, their internal organs are slowly crushing each other as their skeletons' growth slows down in such a cramped space. Even if later transferred to a larger tank, that animal's lifespan has been cut in half and it's quality of life significantly diminished. I am not the Tang Police, but not even a juvenile Tang should ever be kept in a 55.
As fish grow, they secrete a chemical signature into the water that inhibits their own growth. In a significantly large body of water (ocean), this is instantly diluted and has no effect. However, in confined spaces, or with large populations, it slows they skeletal growth. This is an adaptation to prevent a species from eating itself out of house and home. The problem is that the chemical's effect is limited. It can slow growth, but only so much, and not completely. A Tang kept in a small tank WILL eventually have severe physical deformities and die early.
*cue the protest from a guy who's kept a tang in a small tank for two years* Yeah, I heard you. It's been two years. A human can survive two years in a closet. But 50 years later, they will still be paying for the trauma. Don't. Do. It.

Blue and Pink Sea Star - Pick a different species. Period. This is a sand sifter, and even in a large tank, it will eventually kill all the beneficial organisms in the sand bed and starve. And it won't even have the decency to die where you can see it. It'll bury itself and rot under the sand. Try a Fromia star. They come in very pretty colors. But as stated earlier, wait months.

Damsel - You'll be trying to get it out of the tank eventually. They're mean. A good small blue fish is the Chalk Basslet. And you can have more than one if introduced simultaneously!

Those rocks are simply base rock. They will become live rock over time. Keep em!

Butterflyfish are hit or miss. Most are considered "Reef Safe with Caution" with means "Probably ok. But they might go on a coral binge one day and eat everything."
My foxface does quite well in a 55, and he eats all kinds of algae, even bubble algae!

You can have way more snails in that tank, plus some hermits. I strongly recommend Nassarius snails, too, as they keep the top inch of sand stirred, and are great at cleaning up extra food.

Whew! Sorry that was long winded!
 
Getting ready for Halloween?

I'm no geologist but....Dry rock is not live rock. live rock has bacteria on it that lives in saltwater. Your dry rock can become live rock after your tank cycles with the rock in it. This looks like my rock, other than the color...don't know much on rock that has been manufactured/colored. If it was in a saltwater tank before it should be okay. My guess is you're okay. If it is manufactured a quick Internet search might be the way to find out what you have and whether it is saltwater compatible, my experience has been that freshwater decorations tend to be okay for saltwater. If not made for aquariums I would shy away.
 
MacDracor - explain the zinc and other metals comment. What does the tap water conditioner take out then? I was assuming that she was using a tap water conditioner. As a confession I filled my tank with conditioned tap water, but realized my error and am now topping off and water changes use or water from the store.
 
MacDracor said:
I'm going to hit a couple specific questions here.
Tap Water - The issue is not algae. Sure, some cities have nitrates and phosphates in the tap, but that is not the real issue. Can you be absolutely certain your city's tap water contains no copper, iron, zinc, etc etc etc? Some places even have heavy metals such as lead. Now, odds are that if any of these metals or other compounds are present, the quantities will be miniscule. And as such, you could top off with tap for a year and have no problem, as the metals will bind with the rock and sand. However, eventually, there WILL be a saturation point reached. One day, you'll add a bucket of tap water and a year's worth of copper will explode out of the sand and rocks, killing all the inverts in a day. For every horror story, there are at least two people who will say "That's ridiculous. I've been doing that for years with no problem." but do you want to take that chance? You can get top off water for 20- 40 cents per gallon at a grocery store. I use the Glacier brand dispensers. It is worth it.

Tangs - Yes, yes, yes. Joe Schmoe keeps a regal tang and a yellow in a 30 gallon tank and they've been fine for a year. Of course, their internal organs are slowly crushing each other as their skeletons' growth slows down in such a cramped space. Even if later transferred to a larger tank, that animal's lifespan has been cut in half and it's quality of life significantly diminished. I am not the Tang Police, but not even a juvenile Tang should ever be kept in a 55.
As fish grow, they secrete a chemical signature into the water that inhibits their own growth. In a significantly large body of water (ocean), this is instantly diluted and has no effect. However, in confined spaces, or with large populations, it slows they skeletal growth. This is an adaptation to prevent a species from eating itself out of house and home. The problem is that the chemical's effect is limited. It can slow growth, but only so much, and not completely. A Tang kept in a small tank WILL eventually have severe physical deformities and die early.
*cue the protest from a guy who's kept a tang in a small tank for two years* Yeah, I heard you. It's been two years. A human can survive two years in a closet. But 50 years later, they will still be paying for the trauma. Don't. Do. It.

Blue and Pink Sea Star - Pick a different species. Period. This is a sand sifter, and even in a large tank, it will eventually kill all the beneficial organisms in the sand bed and starve. And it won't even have the decency to die where you can see it. It'll bury itself and rot under the sand. Try a Fromia star. They come in very pretty colors. But as stated earlier, wait months.

Damsel - You'll be trying to get it out of the tank eventually. They're mean. A good small blue fish is the Chalk Basslet. And you can have more than one if introduced simultaneously!

Those rocks are simply base rock. They will become live rock over time. Keep em!

Butterflyfish are hit or miss. Most are considered "Reef Safe with Caution" with means "Probably ok. But they might go on a coral binge one day and eat everything."
My foxface does quite well in a 55, and he eats all kinds of algae, even bubble algae!

You can have way more snails in that tank, plus some hermits. I strongly recommend Nassarius snails, too, as they keep the top inch of sand stirred, and are great at cleaning up extra food.

Whew! Sorry that was long winded!

Thank you!!! Very helpful. I will take your advice and accept the fact that a tang is not going to happen.

Is there a way for me to test for any trace metals that may be in my tap water. More than the price of RO is the inconvenience. By top off water do you mean to replace evaporates water? What about water changes?

I am doing FOWLR. No coral. So hopefully the butterfly will be okay. I really like them. My biggest concern with a foxface is that my tank is only a foot deep. Is that alright?
Hermit crab freak me out. They look like spiders with shells and I'm a huge bugaphobe so I'm not getting those!

So let's edit the list to:

2 clownfish
1 butterfly
1 foxface
1 dottyback (potentially)
1 starfish
1 lobster
And a bunch of snails

How much more room do I have?
 
Yes I always use a tap water conditioner. I've been using the cheap stuff from Petsmart but also have a bottle of prime.
And those rocks were formerly In a freshwater tank.
 
Tap water conditioner uses a chemical such as sodium thiosulfate to instantly catalyze chlorine and chloramine into a harmless form, or to cause it to nearly instantly evaporate. Most also contain various organic compounds such as aloe vera extract to stimulate slime coats. A few contain denitrifying bacteria in suspended animation. But in a technical sense, they don't "remove" anything at all. They may cause chlorine to evaporate out rapidly, but they don't do much else. There are a few additives that "bind" certain metals such as copper and iron, rendering them chemically inert, but again, there are saturation points for these as well.
Generations of reef keepers do not recommend RO water simply because it's less algae work. They recommend it because you should always know exactly what you are putting into your tank. And when it comes to top off water, that should consist of two parts Hydrogen to one part Oxygen. And none of the other stuff that comes with tap water.
 
Thank you!!! Very helpful. I will take your advice and accept the fact that a tang is not going to happen.

Is there a way for me to test for any trace metals that may be in my tap water. More than the price of RO is the inconvenience. By top off water do you mean to replace evaporates water? What about water changes?

I am doing FOWLR. No coral. So hopefully the butterfly will be okay. I really like them. My biggest concern with a foxface is that my tank is only a foot deep. Is that alright?
Hermit crab freak me out. They look like spiders with shells and I'm a huge bugaphobe so I'm not getting those!

So let's edit the list to:

2 clownfish
1 butterfly
1 foxface
1 dottyback (potentially)
1 starfish
1 lobster
And a bunch of snails

How much more room do I have?

Your city or municipality will have water quality reports, but I'm not 100% sure where to find them. Top off is simply replacing evaporated water with fresh water. And yeah, lugging around 5 gallon buckets is inconvenient. But replacing dead fish is heartbreaking. Like I said, it might be a year or longer before you experience any consequences from tap water, but odds are, eventually you will. If nothing else, make your top off water RO, even if your water changes are tap. Topping off with tap increases trace element concentration. Swapping out with tap does not.

FOWLR + butterfly = happy. (I like simple math. lol)
Foxfaces rarely exceed 8 inches, and while active, are not the zippy swimmers tangs are, so a 60 gallon is usually just fine. Some other rabbitfishes get too large for this size tank, but the foxface does nicely. Mine is in a 55.

Bugaphobe warning: There will be bug-like creatures in your tank. These are GOOD things. Copepods (size and shape of fleas, but transparent), amphipods (larger, shaped like a comma), bristleworms (worms. with bristles.) will all very likely be present, and are good things. Embrace the buggy and wormy goodness!

I'm not sure I'd add many more fish than that. And the dottyback better be the last to go in or he will terrorize any who come after. Consider a basslet instead, such as the Royal Gramma or Chalk.

Also, maybe hermits will seem less buggy if they are pretty colors, like the Electric Blue. Google it. Very pretty.

My favorite snail species and their favorite hangouts (at least in my tank):
Nerites - upper glass.
Astraea - All glass
Trochus - The rocks
Nassarius - In the sand, except when they smell food, then all over the place. They pop up out of the sand like daisies!

You'll also likely see little hitchhiker snails.
 
I'm also TOTALLY freaked by spiders and bug-like things!! But, the hermits don't bother me. When you pick them up, they go back into their shells, so it's like picking up a shell. But if you absolutely don't want hermits, then you gotta get Nassarius snails. They will go around and eat any left over food, which is one of the jobs of the hermits. Being scared of creepy crawlies, I'm surprised by this, but I adore my cleaner shrimp, even though he's molted a bunch of times and is very big and has big antennae. Lol. He is totally cute and probably in a Tie with the clown as my favorite part of the tank. What you think is cute will change, trust me.

BTW, if it's blue you want, 3 blue reef chromis would be great in your tank!! They school together, swimming all around and following each other. Very cute! I have 3 green ones, and they are cute and curious and always right there at the top when I'm doing something. Very friendly fish!! And they are a beautiful blue color. Look them up!!

I have a royal gramma, and she's very pretty. Swim around some, then goes I her spot, then swap around some more. Funny thing is, she swims upside down a lot. An she'll kinda hover there completely vertical. Silly fish. They all have their own personality. It's funny!!

I hope you enjoy SW as much as I have. It's been great fun. Have had a couple things die, and it's sad. So try to do it the right way if you can. They really are just cute, helpless (except for the ones who have teeth) lol, funny little living things. And for those of us who decide to keep them in our homes, it's our job to give them a clean and healthy home. :) I don't have an RO system yet, either. So luggin the 5 gallon buckets does get tiring, but I know it's what i need to do, so I do it.

BTW- I'm thinking of getting a foxface for my 55g now!!! Yea!!
 
Somebody I work with told me I have to use live sand. I think I already asked this but just to confirm, I can use pool filter sand if I want to, right?
And for the aquaclears, is the foam, bio balls AND carbon required?
 
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