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NicoleIsStoked said:
Somebody I work with told me I have to use live sand. I think I already asked this but just to confirm, I can use pool filter sand if I want to, right?
And for the aquaclears, is the foam, bio balls AND carbon required?

They aren't all required. Some people use certain components and not others. The sponge is to catch the large particles of food/poop and BB grow in there, the bio balls are a place for BB to grow, and the carbon is to remove odors and small particulates and clear up the water. Its up to you what you want to use.
I've read that you can use pool sand, but I never have.
 
Live sand isn't required, just like live rock isn't required, although they will speed up your cycle. Also, I suppose you could use pool-filter sand, however, pool-filter and play sand are silica-based sands. That means that over time they will release silicates which feed diatoms. Diatoms is an alga (most often it is brown, but there are many different types). Aragonite sand probably contains some silicates too (idk exactly), but if you are adding the pool-filter sand, you're just feeding the diatoms. Wouldn't be a lovely tank with diatoms covering the glass, sand, and rocks. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong as I only have the basic idea :) Hope this helps, or just gives some random knowledge!
 
Sand - Live Sand is not required. To be honest, sand is not required, but is extremely helpful for a number of reasons. Sand creates an environment for microfauna such as copepods, amphipods, bristleworms, certain snails, and other critters far too numerous to list here. Each of those performs a specific function in the mini ecosystem you are trying to create.
Pool Filter Sand vs Aragonite Sand
Pool Filter sand can be used, but as obscurereef mentioned, it is silicate based and you do risk that breaking down over time, though it's not quite as huge a deal as some make it out to be if your ph is stable. Which brings me to the next point. Aragonite sand is made of Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), which can provide limited buffering ability. In other words, if for some reason, your ph begins to drop, the aragonite will begin to dissolve, raising the ph back to where it should be.
Dry aragonite vs Live Sand
Live Sand is sand collected from real reefs, or more often, aquacultured in existing and established reef tanks. It is already coated with the denitrifying bacteria you are trying to establish with a Cycle. It is often advertised as containing a complete range of microfauna. However, when you consider the process of scooping and bagging the sand (crush, grind), shipping (chill, heat), storage (deoxygenation), shipping(broken record here...), and finally your purchase... you are left with sand containing bacteria in suspended animation, along with various microorganisms in varying states of decay.
Is it worth the added expense? Well, it will jump start the cycle pretty quickly, but you can get just as much benefit from using 90% dry sand and topping with a handful of sand from a friend's tank.
By the way, dry aragonite is much less expensive than "Live Sand" and while I don't have numbers handy, for a shallow sand bed, probably wouldn't cost much more than the pool sand.

Aquaclear filter media
None of those are required. They may help, but aren't required. The "Berlin Method" of biological filtration involves using sufficient Live Rock, sand, and a protein skimmer. In general, this is more than adequate to keep dissolved nutrients to a minimum. Few reefers use carbon on a regular basis, as it can also remove desirable elements from the water. Bio-balls are a controversial topic. Some swear by them, some swear at them. The foam is probably the only thing in thre I would keep, simply for mechanical filtration, to suck up any random floaty bits.
 
Macdracor, you're awesome. Thanks for the boatloads of info. I read somewhere that adding some baking soda will also buffer the pH. What is the controversy relating to bio-balls?
 
Never used baking soda, but it is a buffering agent. You'd need to do some research on appropriate quantities and dosing frequency. Of course, that's all assuming you end up with ph issues at all. Just make sure you test religiously!
So, bio-balls are designed to provide a surface for bacteria to adhere to, and favor a specific species. Can't recall the name, but it's not important. They work really well at converting Nitrite to Nitrate. Some say too well, and there are tons of stories about skyrocketing Nitrate problems related to Bio-Balls. But... Nitrates don't appear out of nowhere. The Nitrogen has to come from somewhere, generally from Nitrites, which come from ammonia, which comes from fish poop and decaying matter.
So, in theory, if you don't overstock and don't overfeed, Bio-Balls should work great. But, with sufficient Live Rock, you shouldn't need the balls at all, since their only function is turning Nitrite to Nitrate.
 
Gotcha. Btw I just googled bristle worms and almost barfed. If that's in my tank I don't want to stick my hand in. Is there anyway to kill these things? Maybe remove them with tongs and flush them down the toilet?
 
They are nocturnal and hide in the sand and the rock, and you'll pretty much never need to get anywhere near them.
And they are easy to kill. They're worms. BUT!
Bristle worms are the most beneficial organism you can have in a saltwater tank. They aren't pretty, but they are SOOOO useful.
 
Fireworm is not a species. Neither is bristleworm. Both terms are interchangeable for polychaete annelid worms. Now, there are a few species that have the above words IN their names, such as the Bearded Fireworm
Bearded_Fireworm_%28Small%29.jpg

Which is a predator of Gorgonians.
There is also the Bobbit Worm
220px-Eunice_aphroditois.jpg

The Bobbit Worm is an ambush predator.

These two species do on occasion make it into tanks, but it's rare. I haven't found a case of anyone having either, at least not that could be verified. Most people see a common bristleworm such as E. complanata
17093.jpg

and freak out, thinking it's "the dreaded fireworm that will eat everything and try to kill me, too!"
The truth of the matter is that the VAST overwhelming majority of bristle/fire/ugly worms that we see in our tanks are a good thing.
One thing to consider with places like IPSF... These guys offer some great stuff, and offer microfauna few others do, which is fantastic, but they are a not so local LFS. And what do we always say about advice from the LFS? Grain of salt, guys. IPSF also recommends dozens of clams for the sand bed, which will die in the average reef system from starvation, and they Trademarked (TM) the name MiniStars rather than say "Micro Brittle Stars" like the rest of the english speaking world.

I'm sure at least someone is reading this thinking I am making this all up or talking out my rear, but allow me to quote Ronald L. Shimek, PH.D. from his fantastic article on Polychaete worms in Coral & Reef USA 2013 Annual Edition.
"In the long run, it has become obvious that a thriving population of bristleworms of almost all types promote the longterm health of aquaria."

Should check out the article, if you can find it. It gives names of the VERY few known bad worms, along with pictures of the good, the bad, and the ugly, and tons of info.
 
I read an article yesterday that suggested that it is better not to buy live rock and sand because you wind up with a slew of creatures you don't want. It suggested instead, getting base rock and cycling with ammonia or a dead shrimp, allowing the rock to become live without pests. It linked to a forum where a guy posted a picture of a four foot worm he pulled out of his tank. The thing looked like something from alien vs predator. Thoughts?
 
MacDracor, I learned some cool new things from you and definitely agree with you. Didn't know the names were used interchangeably. Anyway, the article you read is exactly what I did. I bought 100 lbs of pukani dry rock from BRS. A beautiful, porous rock where you get more for your money. I only used about 3/4 of what I bought (I have a 70 gallon so about 1 lb/gallon). I probably even used too much that's how great of a deal it was. Anyway I could go on and on about how awesome this rock is lol, but the fact is, I didn't really prefer the look of the usual dense live rock. I also used dry sand and pure ammonia (I got mine from drtimsaquatics.com, but usually a hardware store will sell it) to cycle my tank. There wasn't the rotten stench or eye sore of rotten shrimp and it wasn't that hard to add the right dosage for my tank. With dry rock, dry sand, and pure ammonia, you know exactly what is going into your aquarium. There won't be pests from live rock, but there won't be beneficial creatures either. In time the rock and sand will look like (maybe even better b/c of the maturity, etc.) anything sold at the lfs or online. There might be pests on other live things you add, but this would be one way to know exactly what you are adding at first. In case you're interested or just want to look, here's the rock I got: BRS Pukani Dry Aquarium Live Rock - Bulk Dry Live Rock - Bulk Reef Supply
Their reef saver rock is awesome too and cheaper
 
obscurereef said:
MacDracor, I learned some cool new things from you and definitely agree with you. Didn't know the names were used interchangeably. Anyway, the article you read is exactly what I did. I bought 100 lbs of pukani dry rock from BRS. A beautiful, porous rock where you get more for your money. I only used about 3/4 of what I bought (I have a 70 gallon so about 1 lb/gallon). I probably even used too much that's how great of a deal it was. Anyway I could go on and on about how awesome this rock is lol, but the fact is, I didn't really prefer the look of the usual dense live rock. I also used dry sand and pure ammonia (I got mine from drtimsaquatics.com, but usually a hardware store will sell it) to cycle my tank. There wasn't the rotten stench or eye sore of rotten shrimp and it wasn't that hard to add the right dosage for my tank. With dry rock, dry sand, and pure ammonia, you know exactly what is going into your aquarium. There won't be pests from live rock, but there won't be beneficial creatures either. In time the rock and sand will look like (maybe even better b/c of the maturity, etc.) anything sold at the lfs or online. There might be pests on other live things you add, but this would be one way to know exactly what you are adding at first. In case you're interested or just want to look, here's the rock I got: BRS Pukani Dry Aquarium Live Rock - Bulk Dry Live Rock - Bulk Reef Supply
They're reef saver rock is awesome too and cheaper

That is some very nice looking rock but $3.49 per lb still seems quite expensive. Approx how many lbs is each piece?
If I cycle with a shrimp am I suppose to let it fully disintegrate or remove it before adding fish?
Can someone educate me on the extra care and equipment required to keep corals? What about anemones? Are they fish or coral? What is required to have one?
 
Dry rock only - There are advantages to this. Obviously you would only have in the tank what you added. But for me, the disadvantages far outweigh that. Without seeing the worm he removed, I can only guess as to what it was or where it came from. But, I can tell you that in my tank, I have at least 3 easily distinguishable species of bristle worms (I spend a lot of time with a flashlight at night exploring) and none of them exceed 4 inches, though I know at least one of them can reach over a foot. Why do mine never get huge? Food. Like all the microfauna in our tanks, populations and adult size are resource limited. My guess is that the giant worm you mentioned was a common species such as E. complanata, and he simply overfeeds his tank, allowing them to grow large. Six Line wrasses also help keep them under control.
Remember though, Live rock is more than just a platform for bacteria. It is a vessel by which all sorts of creatures are introduced. On occasion, you may get one you don't want, such as aiptasia, or a mantis shrimp. But most of them are fantastic! I'm just going to list a few of the animals I have found and (at least roughly) identified, all introduced on live rock.
Stomatella varia snails.
Bristle worms
Peanut worms
Amphipods
Copepods
Mysid shrimp (now breeding like crazy in my fuge)
Collonista snails
Spaghetti worms
Chitons
Limpets
At least four types of Sponge
Feather dusters of all shapes, sizes and colors
Coralline algae in 4 colors

Isn't that worth the single aiptasia I got? Peppermint shrimp ate that quick enough. Buying only base rock and letting it "mature" on it's own may give you a darker colored rock in time, but it will never have the incredible biodiversity of LR purchased from different stores.

One thing about the Pukani rock. It's very light and porous, so the typical "1-2 lbs per gallon" rule can be fudged. It's also dry, and LR is weighed when wet. So 1 lb per gallon would be plenty if you went that route. The rocks will weight between 0.5 and 4 lbs each, based on their size. Great to use this stuff, but I really advise adding some LR too. Even if you have to buy... let's say 10 lbs of LR to start the tank and cycle, then buy a single fish and another rock. And so on until you have enough.

When cycling with shrimp, if you have only base rock, the shrimp will never go away and will need to be removed. If using LR, it will be eaten and you'll see an increase in microfauna populations.

Corals - for me, this is where saltwater shines. Many corals are actually very easy to care for and require little to no additional care. Especially softies. But as a general rule, for a reef tank, you need better lighting, higher flow, and lower nitrate.
In a FO or FOWLR tank, Nitrate up to 40 are fine, but for a reef, the lower the better. 0 is he holy grail of reef keeping. Mine hovers around 5 ppm. For soft corals, a single T5 HO bulb *may* be fine. Two T5 HO bulbs will allow you to keep even some LPS. I have 2 54 watt T5 HO bulbs, and I keep Hammer, frogspawn, torch, blastomussa, duncan, bubble, mushroom, kenya tree, zooanthid, galaxea, calustraea, and even a couple Montis.

Anemones are neither fish nor coral, but are related to corals. They are (like coral) cnidarians, posessing radial symmetry and a single body cavity with one opening used for both ingestion and excretion. With a few exceptions, anemone and coral are photosynthetic and derive energy from light. For a beginner anemone, I'd stick with the Bubble Tip (entacmea quadricolor), but don't get one now. Wait at least 6 months, preferably longer, for the tank to mature, as they are very sensitive animals.

As an aside, mushroom corals are not really corals either. They are their own class, called corallimorphs, and are somewhere between coral and anemone, possessing qualities of both.
 
Yeah it is quite expensive, but I got it on sale so it wasn't too bad. I just counted and there are 16 pieces of rock although one is only about 5". 3 of the rocks are huge, each very close to 2 ft. The other 12 pieces are about a foot each. I had some leftover rubble to use for my refugium also. Because the rocks are very porous and light weight, they tend to be large, so you can request smaller rocks if you want to have a variety of sizes. If you think about it though, they are a better buy. Live rock online or lfs is going to be denser (plus water weight) and you'll probably paying more for live rock that might look not as decent as some dry rock. The pukani was really easy to aquascape since there are so many crevices, things seem to just fit together more easily.
attachment

I still have 4 rocks left (one of which is about 2') after using all of them in my tank! Anemones are invertebrates and should be added in an established aquarium (6-8 months). I think there are some articles on here that would give great info about keeping corals.
 
Once again MacDracor gives awesome advice and knowledge! (y) While you do have a point with all the life found on live rock, a small portion possibly being pests which can probably be removed in some easy way, in my opinion I just like the look and price of the dry rock. If I bought live rock that looked like the rock I got, I'd be paying way too much. It really depends on the preference. As an extra precaution I went with the dry rock (yes I could be missing an opportunity to get all the life that comes on LR, but that's what I chose and I'm very satisfied.) Either way, both have it's pros and cons, so it's really on preference. :D
 
When (not if) I get a bigger tank, I'm buying Pukani rock for aquascaping, but I'm keeping all my existing LR for the biodiversity. Best of both worlds!
 
If you're still looking for dry rock, check out Marcorocks.com. I've ordered a couple of times from them and have had great experiences both times. It's very porous and I got more than I ordered.
 
Ok so I will be buying all my equipment on thurs or fri. Hopefully I can keep the cost down to $150-200 max. *fingers crossed*
Couple more questions:
What does a powerhead do that my massive filters won't?
What's the difference between a powerhead and a circulation pump?
How much sand should I need for the tank? Footprint is 4'x1'.
For making my salt mix for water changes would I be better off using a 5gal bucket with a heater and pump, or what about using a 10 or 20 gal tank? Do I have to use a powerhead to mix it or can I use a HOB filter with no media or an aeration pump? If possible I'd like to be able to use the stuff I already have at home.
 
Don't overlook craigslist! Can find stuff for cheaps on there!
Powerheads provide additional water movement. Reefs are naturally extremely turbulent. A read an account of flags (to mark locations) with 5-10 lb diving weights getting tossed around like balloons.
A powerhead contains an impeller and a nozzle directing flow out steadily in one direction, usually in a focused stream. Circulation pumps contain a propeller inside a cage, drawing water in from all sides and shooting it out more erratically. Essentially, they provide slightly less constant/predictable flow, which is more natural for the reef environment.
Sand depends on depth. For a shallow sand bed, you could probably do with 10 lbs. For a deep sand bed, at least quadruple that.
Salt mix can be done in any appropriately sized container. Just... be able to move it. LOL
 
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