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Old 03-26-2012, 10:14 AM   #231
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@Andy, I only buy juvenile fish, so pretty much I know they are under a year when I get them. Well ok, the bicolor blenny I just got is just under full grown size so it may be 2 years old.

The problem is pretty much as you stated. MOST people do not do the research, or create an environment that will allow this magnificent fish to thrive. Then there is the large group that reads about someone keeping one in a 28 gallon aquarium and thinks they can do it too.

Those are the types of attitudes that give the industry a bad name and legislative calls for the banning of exporting or importing ornamental fish. Hawaii is at it again, and there is a good chance it may pass this time.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:38 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by cmor1701d
@Andy, I only buy juvenile fish, so pretty much I know they are under a year when I get them. Well ok, the bicolor blenny I just got is just under full grown size so it may be 2 years old.

The problem is pretty much as you stated. MOST people do not do the research, or create an environment that will allow this magnificent fish to thrive. Then there is the large group that reads about someone keeping one in a 28 gallon aquarium and thinks they can do it too.

Those are the types of attitudes that give the industry a bad name and legislative calls for the banning of exporting or importing ornamental fish. Hawaii is at it again, and there is a good chance it may pass this time.
This is my point exactly. We need to show more dedication to keeping species alive and well, rather than just trashing ornamental fish. Some folks have a cavalier attitude, when a fish dies, we will just get another one. If you are not striving to keep fish and corals you know you can keep alive, rather than wishing it was so, you become part of the problem. As a diver I see these fish in their natural environment. That makes it much harder to rationalize that what I am doing is okay when I collect a fish. So when I hear about the tang in the nano cube, or the Mandarine in the 1 year old tank...I get cranky.
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:01 PM   #233
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I can't say that I have had long term success with my mandarin, but it's been about 8 months or so and so far so good. She was tricky to get eating prepared foods but is still eating and growing quite nicely. My tank was not up for very long before adding her, just a few months but I did have established live rock and a fuge. I also keep mine in a biocube, which I think was the reason I was able to get her eating.

I researched for months on end before getting one and even now I worry that she will revert to pods again. It took ALOT of time and attention to get her feeding, I feed the tank 2 times a day at least and watch the mandarin eat for at least 10 minutes each time to ensure she is getting enough. I also have to turn off the flow when feeding as between her and the scooter they need all the help they can get. LOL

After what I have experienced with mine I can't honestly say that I would recommend one. I am not even sure I would get one again if I had it to do over.

In the end I wish more people who want one would really really research it and then make a realistic decision. It's unfortunate that some people view fish as expendable and just get another one and then they complain how much the fish cost! It's so MUCH more than the cost and until people really really understand that and change their behavior there will always be those that buy without thought to consequences.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:13 PM   #234
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Carey...you are the exception to the rule. Your dedication to doing it right allows you more slack than I give anyone else. 99.9% of the people in the hobby (myself included) don't have the true dedication it takes to keep these guys alive and well. The rest is luck. I just want folks to quit fooling themselves into thinking that their situation will be different, when the only thing that really counts is the amount of understanding and effort you put into it. You yourself said you wouldn't recommend adding a Mandarine to a new tank...but you did anyway and got away with it. You were also honest in admitting it might not have been the best thing to do...but it worked for you.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:40 PM   #235
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Thanks Greg, appreciate the compliment.

i also like to post in this thread so that people will maybe understand how much hard work it was and still is to keep one healthy and happy. It's a daily effort on my part, I can't even imagine going on vacation or anything like that as I would freak out if I couldnt' keep my eye on my tanks.

I also understand some of the posters that have had "sucess" with keeping theirs with no apparent effort by them. In my opinion, as with everything in saltwater, this will catch up to them one day. It always does in aquaria, you can only get away with soo much for so long.

Just my thoughts and opinions everyone, agree or disagree.

one more note, I'm not sure "I got away" with it exactly. I did everything I could possibly do to keep one. i bought an ORA one, one that was picking at frozen food at the LFS, a nice healthy specimen that looked good with good color and behavior and had the LFS quarantine them for me. Had plenty of pods in my tank, about 50lbs of live rock in a 29g tank, a fuge with cheato and I supplemented the pods in the fuge every few months until I bought the fish.
I guess the bottom line is I jumped through soo many hoops to make this sucessful and it could have still turned out badly in a heartbeat. It still may. Despite my tremendous efforts it still may result in the fish dying earlier than it would have. THIS is what you have to consider when thinking about getting one.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:15 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carey
Thanks Greg, appreciate the compliment.

i also like to post in this thread so that people will maybe understand how much hard work it was and still is to keep one healthy and happy. It's a daily effort on my part, I can't even imagine going on vacation or anything like that as I would freak out if I couldnt' keep my eye on my tanks.

I also understand some of the posters that have had "sucess" with keeping theirs with no apparent effort by them. In my opinion, as with everything in saltwater, this will catch up to them one day. It always does in aquaria, you can only get away with soo much for so long.

Just my thoughts and opinions everyone, agree or disagree.

one more note, I'm not sure "I got away" with it exactly. I did everything I could possibly do to keep one. i bought an ORA one, one that was picking at frozen food at the LFS, a nice healthy specimen that looked good with good color and behavior and had the LFS quarantine them for me. Had plenty of pods in my tank, about 50lbs of live rock in a 29g tank, a fuge with cheato and I supplemented the pods in the fuge every few months until I bought the fish.
I guess the bottom line is I jumped through soo many hoops to make this sucessful and it could have still turned out badly in a heartbeat. It still may. Despite my tremendous efforts it still may result in the fish dying earlier than it would have. THIS is what you have to consider when thinking about getting one.
By "get away with it" I meant to indicate that you can do all the things you listed and still have a high chance of failure.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:43 PM   #237
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All I can say is...

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Originally Posted by Gregcoyote View Post
This is my point exactly. We need to show more dedication to keeping species alive and well, rather than just trashing ornamental fish. Some folks have a cavalier attitude, when a fish dies, we will just get another one. If you are not striving to keep fish and corals you know you can keep alive, rather than wishing it was so, you become part of the problem. As a diver I see these fish in their natural environment. That makes it much harder to rationalize that what I am doing is okay when I collect a fish. So when I hear about the tang in the nano cube, or the Mandarine in the 1 year old tank...I get cranky.

Cmore, Gregcoyote, All I can say is that I totally agree with you both. A Tang in a nano? PLEASE!!!!!
This is why I left retail. The types of people that began keeping fish turned me off to dealing with them so I left retail and went back into breeding. Hopefully, the day of the true HOBBYIST willl return and there will be less wasted fish and more educated consumers. Until then, I can and will only offer advice from experiences.

(Maybe the three of us need to figure out a way to open a HOBBYIST only store and open it to hobbyists by invitation only. )
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:30 PM   #238
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I have known personally and had the pleasure of interacting with the real pros on this forum. All of you guys (and gals) have a pretty simple philosophy that I had to kind of invent for myself years ago. And by reading as much as I could. Keeping it simple. What we now do easily was very hard not that long ago. The hobby is light years from where it was. Remember, fresh water aquariums and ponds go back to the Romans. Saltwater...what...maybe 50 years? Within a few years you will be able to buy "Mandarine Feast" pods in cryo-suspension that are irresistible to any Mandarine. Or something like it...
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:13 AM   #239
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I second that Greg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregcoyote View Post
I have known personally and had the pleasure of interacting with the real pros on this forum. All of you guys (and gals) have a pretty simple philosophy that I had to kind of invent for myself years ago. And by reading as much as I could. Keeping it simple. What we now do easily was very hard not that long ago. The hobby is light years from where it was. Remember, fresh water aquariums and ponds go back to the Romans. Saltwater...what...maybe 50 years? Within a few years you will be able to buy "Mandarine Feast" pods in cryo-suspension that are irresistible to any Mandarine. Or something like it...
I second that Greg.
I have been in with fish for over 47 years. My first saltwater tank had a slate bottom and a metal frame. All glass aquariums didn't exist yet. I used water from the ocean and sand from the beach and fish I caught locally. Noone could figure out why the fish only lived about 6 months. I later learned it was either from the slate leeching oil or the rust from the frame, it took about 6 months for the tank to go bad. We didn't have UG filters, wet/dry filters, submersible heaters or flo lights for aquriums. Since that time I have done so many things: raised marine fish from micro sized to macro sized, had water tested using Gaschromatography, done disease control using sensitivity culturing, recreated living reefs in a tank, had corals spawn and subdivided in a tank, seen the new inovations like Wet/ Drys, UV sterilizers, Ozonators, "live sand", I've created holding systems that were 2500 gals big, had successful 1 gal marine tanks and imported fish from all corners of the world. This hobby has come a long way but it still can go a long way too.

Like Greg, I learned a lot the hard way. Reading is great and I had a library of books that any Ichthyologist would envy. However, experience trumps reading (IMO ). And all that learning gave me my favorite saying: "The less you mess, the better the success." It's as true today as it was when I first said it over 25 years ago.

I believe I can speak for Greg coyote and say that we look forward to the day when fish don't die because of something we as hobbyists did. I'd rather have them die of old age like my fresh water fish did. There was a study done a while back with a pair of clownfish in the Marshall Islands (I believe). The same pair was monitored for 25 years. That means if they live that long in nature, they should live longer in a tank. As I said, I can't wait for that day Mandarins being a difficult fish to keep will be a thing of the past, just like metal framed tanks.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:56 PM   #240
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Amen to that Andy. It may cycle through again, though legislation may force it there too. Hopefully not, and we will be able to enjoy our little 'oceans' at home for many years.
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