Newbie questions: fish compat, LR, water changing, inverts

[bpeitzke]

We are SW tank newbies; had a problem a while ago with fish dying. Got advice from this forum (thanks!); redid tank, cycled, jump-started with shrimp. A week or so after seeing the nitrite spike subside, we introduced 3 small damsels & a 2" puffer. They have been thriving ) Yesterday we added 2 angels and a clownfish. The puffer kept nibbling on the clownfish, and we had to take him out. I wonder if there's some known incompatibility there, or if maybe the clownfish was sick and the puffer sensed it and went after him as an easy target. We thought he looked OK, but the puffer obviously picked on him.

At this point, our 40-gal tank has only a 2" substrate of crushed coral, and several dead corals providing hiding spaces. We have no LR, no invertebrates. We have a Fluval filter of appropriate size, and a protein skimmer, and just added two fluorescent lights, full length, one white, one blue (not sure wattage).

I'm wondering about adding some live rock, and/or some snails & crabs. I don't know if we could safely add LR with the fish in the tank. If not, what about getting some kind of neutral rock, and adding it? Would it eventually become "live"? What does that really mean? I.e. is LR just rock populated with bacteria like in the sand/coral, or does it harbor other critters? Would it be beneficial for our tank?

Also, I've read that snails & small crabs are good for keeping tanks clean. Could we introduce them safely to our tank as it is now?

I know this is a lot of questions for one note, but I'd be very grateful for any advice, even if only pointers to articles.

Thanks.

Bob Peitzke

 

[tkos]

If you add cured live rock there should be little if any die offs which result in ammonia spikes. LR is the best form of filtration for a SW tank.

It does often harbour small corals, shrimp, crabs etc...though this is mostly the uncured that contains a lot of new life. The cured contains less.

You can introduce crabs and snails anytime now. Introduce them like fish, slowly and carefully so you won't have die off.

 

[BrianH]

The only problem I see is that many puffers see shrimp, snails & hermits as snacks.

Brian

 

[Hara]

Your tank is overstocked and that is the problem with the fish being picked on. The fluval is not going to be able to handle the load of what you have imo. and you may very well start having other issues soon.

 

[bpeitzke]

You mean 7 small fish are too many for a 40-gallon tank?
Guess I'm going to have to read up on cured vs uncured live rock.

Thanks for the advice.

- Bob

 

[d9hp]

cured vs uncured live rock.

The amount of fish doesnt actually have to do with the amount of fish in this case. You just have too many fish for the tank. An angel is gonna be big, the puffer is gonna be big. I just read you have 2 angels, man thats a double no. I would do some more reading. Anyone remember the person with the username Len? he had a 40 gallon tank and it was way over stocked. Now, you would do much better getting a DSB and some LR. I am sure the LFS told you some things that lead you to believe you are fine with what you have, which is not your fault. I would recommend some, well a lot of some reading. I think that is the best thing. I also recommend the book "the conscious marine aquarium" i hear that is a great book

 

[ReefLady]

Great advice so far. If you're at all used to FW, the stocking considerations for SW are quite different.

You mean 7 small fish are too many for a 40-gallon tank?

In a nutshell, more than likely yes. Seven fish @ 3" each is roughly equal to the fish capacity of a 100g tank. A very loose/general rule of thumb is 1" of fully-grown fish per 5g of water. This depends a lot on the fish's swimming habit (ie: - any Tang is a no-no in a tank less than 4' long), and also how much the fish will contribute to the bioload. Certain fish like Puffers, Triggers, Lions, Eels, etc, are voracious eaters, and contribute heavily to a tank's bioload. Other fish like Clowns, Gobies, and Blennies don't require a lot of swimming/grazing room, and are not heavy eaters, so you can "ease" the rule of thumb a bit with these fish.

A lot of ppl do "FOWLR" tanks. You'd have to watch for compatibility with the fish and some mobile inverts, but the LR itself is a very good idea.

Also, try to keep to adding one, or maybe 2 (small) fish at a time. Adding 2 Angels and a Clown at the same time in a 40g is likely to cause an ammonia spike and a small cycle.

HTH,

 

[d9hp]

Adding 2 Angels and a Clown at the same time in a 40g is likely to cause an ammonia spike and a small cycle.

I forgot to address this, thanks for jumping on it. I would do one big fish, although you should not have any big fish, at a time or two small fish. You did two big fish and a small fish

 

[fishtender]

HI all. Interesting conversation. I have a problem battling cyano right now and in my search for some reasons and cures, it has been mentioned that maybe I have a bio overload. How do anemenes and coral figure in the bio confines of a 55g?
also, I have a shallow LS base of about 1.5". If i were to add regular, or southdown sand at small intervals, will that help to build a better filter to help combat the cyano problem? Or is that scenario even plausable?

 

[ReefLady]

How do anemenes and coral figure in the bio confines of a 55g?

Corals shouldn't effect the bioload at all, unless you are heavily feeding LPS (Hammer, Anchor, etc.) chunks of meaty foods. Anemones - ditto ... the animal itself does not contribute to the bioload unless offered supplemental feedings - then that waste would contribute to the bioload.

If i were to add regular, or southdown sand at small intervals, will that help to build a better filter to help combat the cyano problem? Or is that scenario even plausable?

I'm not sure if it would help the cyano issue, though it would definitely be a good idea t increase the depth of your sandbed for denitrification purposes. I'd add a 1/2" at a time, so that the sandbed fauna can easily migrate to the surface area.

I've been battling cyano (currently in "remission") for the last 6 months or so. One of the toughest battles I've ever fought in 13 years of reefing. IME, a major contributor to cyano is phosphates, which can be h*ll to get rid of. Do you test for phosphates? I'm assuming you know all the "standard" cyano ammunition - replace old bulbs, increase water flow, reduce feedings, etc. etc. If you find a miracle cure, let me know.

 

[fishtender]

I have checked the phosphate level and it was a littl high but after a water change they are right where they should be. I have also started feeding less and dont feed frozen brine anymore. (I can not get live brine whre I live.) I run one powerhead in my 55g half way down in depth and another one that does not blow as hard, but has an airator, on the oposite side more towards the top.

My lights are about 5 months old now and need replacing soon. I have my lights on timers. I run 120 watts flour. They were burning from 6am to 9pm. Yesterday I thought I would lessen the duration to 12 hrs, In hopes that less light would help the situation.

Cna I use any grade of sand to build up my substaight as long as it is thouroughly cleaned and sanitised?

 

[ReefLady]

I have checked the phosphate level and it was a littl high but after a water change they are right where they should be.

What is you P04 level? I find myself battling cyano if I get at all over 0.03, and keeping it at less than that, I find to be VERY difficult. That's tested with a Salifert kit.

Cna I use any grade of sand to build up my substaight as long as it is thouroughly cleaned and sanitised?

Most important is the grain size - you want sugar-sized grains. If you can, get oolitic (rounded grains) aragonite sand. This is sometimes available at hardware stores as Southdown (east coast) or Yardright Tropical Playsand.

Next best is a silica sand - cleaned and sterilized.

HTH,

 

[bpeitzke]

Fish limit, cleaners, water changes?

OK, our puffer killed our clownfish, but since then they've been playing nice and seem to be thriving. Puffer is a fat 2"; Emperor Angel is ~ 3"; Coral Beauty Angel ~ 2"; the 3 damsels are small. Yes, Puffer is a voracious eater, but since we've started feeding them a mixture of frozen live stuff & flakes, he hasn't bothered the other fish nor they each other.
We now have 6 fish in the 40-gal tank w/ ~ 2" crushed coral bed. Ammonia & nitrites have been stable for several weeks.
Our daughter still wants to add a clownfish. OK?

I'm hearing that snails are good cleaners, so I think we'll get some. Sounds like a mix of Nassarius, Cerith and Astrea is good - right? Or is this only right for a reef tank? We've decided not to go reef at this time, as she thinks it would support fewer fish - true?

What about water changes? When? How often? I believe the new water batch s/b prepped to proper salinity & ph, and heated & aeriated before introducing - right?

Oh, should we add some cured live rock?

We're learning. Appreciate your advice.

 

[Hara]

you are way overstocked as it is.

 

[steve-s]

Re: Fish limit, cleaners, water changes?

OK, our puffer killed our clownfish, but since then they've been playing nice and seem to be thriving. Puffer is a fat 2"; Emperor Angel is ~ 3"; Coral Beauty Angel ~ 2"; the 3 damsels are small.

The guideline for SW fish stock is 1" of fish for every 5 gal of tank.

Even though small, this is not a good fish selection for a 40 gal tank. The angel 3" will not stay that size and are known to "make" room when cramped. Same goes for the puffer depending on species. Also note that puffers are notorious fin nippers and won't hesitate to take a bite. I would advise you to return the angel, it will only cause you headaches very soon.

What type of puffer?

since we've started feeding them a mixture of frozen live stuff & flakes, he hasn't bothered the other fish nor they each other.
We now have 6 fish in the 40-gal tank w/ ~ 2" crushed coral bed.

You would be better off target feeding the puffer (depending on the above answer) if possible with a feeding stick. They can be rather messy eaters and it will cut down on the food that ends up in the CC and possibley increasing water quality issues. The other fish are omnivor/herbavor fish and do not really require meaty foods. Good fortified flake or pelletized foods would do well and help keep water quality from falling.

Ammonia & nitrites have been stable for several weeks.

These readings should be zero in a properly cycled tank. What are the levels?

Our daughter still wants to add a clownfish. OK?

I would say no at this point. Your bio load is already over extended.

I'm hearing that snails are good cleaners, so I think we'll get some. Sounds like a mix of Nassarius, Cerith and Astrea is good - right? Or is this only right for a reef tank? We've decided not to go reef at this time, as she thinks it would support fewer fish - true?

Depending on the puffer, most inverts would be considered a nice snacking addition and may not be a good idea. Reef tanks will lower the amount of available fish, but not by much.

What about water changes? When? How often? I believe the new water batch s/b prepped to proper salinity & ph, and heated & aeriated before introducing - right?

Pre mixing as stated above is recommended. Frequency of water changes would really depend on why. If for chemistry replacement that would depend on the the animals using it up but in most cases a 10% water change a few times a month would do it. If for pollution control, you would be better off finding and eliminating the problem rather than masking it with water changes. In most cases excess feedings, trapped foods in filtration and over use af meaty foods are the culprit.

Oh, should we add some cured live rock?

A good amount of rock is always beneficial, but make sure you pre cure it prior to placing in the tank. As it is already "stocked", the addition would most likely send the nitrates and other specs through the roof.

Cheers
Steve

 

[bpeitzke]

About that book ...

Thanks for the book ref. But I couldn't find that title. I browsed the Suggested Reading topic in this section, and found a similar title, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner - is that the one you meant? It does look like a good resource.

 

[bpeitzke]

Fish capacity of 40-gal tank?

>>Seven fish @ 3" each is roughly equal to the fish capacity of a 100g tank<<

That would = 21 "fish-inches". According to that measure, we now (that Clown has gone to fish heaven) have ~ 11.5 "fish-inches" (1x2.5" Puffer + 1x3"Angel + 1x2"Angel + 3x1.3"Damsels). From Steve-S' guideline, looks like we're ~ 3.5 fish-inches over the recommended limit for our 40-gal tank.

We may go pick up some snails this weekend (though I'm hoping for advice on which kinds for our fish-only tank). Not sure about LR; need to do some more reading on that, esp cured vs uncured.

Appreciate your advice.

- Bob

 

[ReefLady]

Just keep in mind that given that your tank is already a bit overcrowded, these fish are also going to grow. The true rule is "1" of fully grown fish per 5g of water". So, unless you're planning on upgrading the tank size considerably within the next year, I'd still maintain that you're well overstocked.

I'm not very familiar with Puffers and invert compatibility. Hopefully someone else can help you out with that question.

Best of luck!

 

[bpeitzke]

Hi, Steve,

Thanks for the great advice. The puffer is called a Green Spotted, I believe - that certainly fits his description.

We've been feeding them flakes and a pellet of frozen sponge/etc mix every evening, one feeding/day. The puffer and the Emperor Angel go after the pellet aggressively, eating more between them than all the other fish combined. The puffer will only eat this, not flakes; the E.Angel will eat either; the damsels only flakes. The pellet gets bounced around until it's gone, which takes only a few minutes.

Based on comments from you & Teri, and our fishes' eating rate, it looks like the puffer and E.Angel will soon outgrow our tank. I will raise issue of fish return.

Maybe we'll just try a couple of snails, and see whether Puffer goes after them or not.

Reef ... yeah, but I think we need to get more experience maintaining a SW tank before we go there - I hear inverts are a lot more sensitive than fish.

Is this a good explanation of curing LR:
http://www.thepetstop.com/fish_shop/rock_sand/#CURING

Thanks.

Cheer,

Bob

 

[steve-s]

Green spotted puffers are a brackish water fish. I am not sure if they do well in a "full salt" environment or not. Best ask in the freshwater/brackish section of the forum, if so it will grow up to 4". I would verify the species if you can. Small snails and ornamental shrimp would still be a concern.

The info about curing the LR is basically correct, although personally I would not scrub the uncured rock. It will take longer to cure but you would get more out of it. I would definately remove the sponges as they will not survive once exsposed to air. Uncured rock should never be placed in an established tank. The resulting NH4, NO2 and NO3 would skyrocket.

The only one part they repeat several times that is absolutley incorrect is removing bristleworms. They are not a pest animal and should be left alone. Mantis as well should be captured and made available for sale. You would be suprised how many would be willing to set up a "species" tank for these guys.

Cheers
Steve