Questions before I jump in... ;)

[MSU Fan]

So my wife is getting pretty antsy to get a SW tank - most likely a FOWLR to start with. In the interest of not spending every bit of money we have saved at the moment, Here is what we have, and I would like some assistance with what we will need...

Have:
a 10, 20, and 29g tank - we prefer to start with the 10g (please keep that in mind)
an AC20 HOB (what kind of media?)
a stand & canopy
50w Heater


Need:
new substrate (Live sand?)
Live Rock (1.5-2lbs/gallon, so 15-20 total for 10g)
additional water movement beyond HOB (PH?)?
my canopy has the potential for 4 8watt CF's, so potentially 36w CF total
skimmer (one of the nano ones rated for 30gallons?)
SW Test Kit
Salt water (does that mean purchasing actual water, or just the salt, and premixing???)

Want:
1 blenny
1 goby
1 clown
inverts?

I don't know if the AC20 is enough with the LR, so help me there. With that stocking list, is a 10g ok, or does it need to be a larger tank? Any other opinions or advise are welcome.

So come one, come all, and go ahead and start advisin'! TIA

 

[rubikcube]

Your stocking list will require at least the 29 gallon.

Don't buy live sand. It's worthless.
If you are looking to save money, buy half live rock and half dead base rock.
For water movement, I'd get two powerheads for a total of 10x per hour flow.
As far as the canopy goes, you don't need to worry about light for FOWLR.
A skimmer isn't necessary, but would be nice. You can probably get by with running carbon and the foam block in the AC20.
As far as test kits go, the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals line packs a nice bang for your buck. For a nicer set, look into Seachem or Salifert.
You can purchase saltwater from the LFS or buy some RO or DI water from your grocery store and mix it yourself.

The AC20 should be enough filtration as long as you have enough LR.

 

[roka64]

Personally, I would start with the larger tank, as this allows for more room to err.
Substrate: I wouldn't waste my money on the "live" sand. Just get the dry stuff made of aragonite, not silica based.
Rock: Save you some money and get some Base Rock www.marcorocks.com about 25Lbs for your 29G (if you use that..hint, hint) and about 20 Lbs of LR.
With this amount of rock, you could skip the HOB, and get a nice skimmer.
I would definitely get a ph for water movement/surface ripple to create a stable pH.
I find it a lot cheaper to get the 160G bucket of salt to premix for around $31.99 at the drs website.
The blenny or goby will depend on what you want. I would suggest a shrimp goby, paired with a pistol shrimp. As for the blenny, I like the forktail blenny, Ray has one that is really cool, I think a Canary blenny? Shoot for a mid level water swimmer, since the goby will like it on the bottom. You could also ad a clown.
Inverts, fighting conch, cerith snails, nassi snails, maybe a pair or peppermint shrimp or a cleaner and fire shrimp.

 

[melosu58]

As far as the tank the bigger the better. I would go with the 29 gallon if that`s as big as you can go. As stated earlier go with a mix of BR and LR and save some money. As far as the sand I would buy dry sand and ask your LFS for a cup of LS from one of his tanks. Then you`ll really have some LS. Those LS in a bag are really not live.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Didn't see any mention about what you're going to use for water. Don't forget to factor that in you plans. Seems like many start out using just plain tap water without doing any testing to see what kind of nasties may be in it to start with. So either test your water to insure it's pristine, or budget in buying distilled or RO/DI water somewhere, or budget in buying and installing your own RO/DI unit. (The only problem with using tap water that tests "pristine" today, is that it might not be so pristine next month.)

You also might want to think about the logistics of storing the mixed saltwater. You'll want a container, a heater, and a powerhead for that stuff as well as a place to put it all. Not much expense there, but thinking about where you're going to store that stuff up front might influence some other decisions down the road.

Refractometer. Good one will run you $50 or so, plus or minus. If you're doing this on a tight budget, the temptation to cut corners there and buy a cheapo swing-arm type is going to be there. But as important as consistent salinity is to your tank, it's not a good place to cut corners.

Agree with others... go with the 29gallon. My QT is a 10 gallon, and I can't even imagine keeping a single clown in there by itself for an extended period of time. Your smaller tanks can be used for a quarantine. I've got a 46 gallon and while in the beginning it looked huge, it seems really small now!

 

[MSU Fan]

Appreciate the feedback everyone - any other advise for SW challenged?

 

[Finatic]

Don't get frustrated early on. Once you get the tank going, things should line out and the cash outlays should decrease dramatically. Just be ready to spend more than you first budgeted. Once you get there though, it actually is a fun hobby to have.

If you get inverts like shrimp, get some of the LED moonlights, its cool to see them crawling over the rocks at night looking for food.

 

[roka64]

I agree, the initial set up can run high but the monthly costs drop a whole lot.

 

[MSU Fan]

I agree, the initial set up can run high but the monthly costs drop a whole lot.

Understood - that is pretty much my previous scenario when I converted my 75g FW to a 75g FW Planted - I rarely spend money on that tank now (beyond new plants and the energy used), but I had budget a significant amount last year to get that going.

Some more questions:
We are definitely going to start with a FOWLR, but are considering down the road moving into reefs - can you change a FOWLR into a reef without restarting the whole system?

Is there a lighting amount you want to target with a FOWLR (wpg)?
To start, we would probably have ~25watts using a single 30" flourescent bulb over our 29g.

So like I said, it looks like the 29g is going to be our starter, but I am getting a 55g tank on craigslist today. That will probably be our upgraded tank later on - but I am going to need to construct a stand, canopy, and would need much more equipment for that to work out (probably construct a sump as well). Or that tank my go to one of my turtles, and the next SW will be bigger...

So let's review what I have and what I need:
Have:
29gallon tank
stand
~27w flourescent lights
AC20 (have foam blocks)

Need:
aragonite Sand (not live)
~25lbs base rock + ~25lbs LR (what is difference between the types: fiji, etc?)
2 power heads (MJ1200s?)
refractometer (since this will have future use beyond this tank, I'll get a better one )
timer
livestock
water
either carbon for AC20, if we get a skimmer, what size gallonage should we target?

oooh - so many questions - what size holding tank should we get to store the SW we probably will pre-mix??? What kind of R/O unit is good?
Judging by the pace of rapid fire questions going through my mind at the moment, I am sure I will experience meltdown soon and just shut up...please bear with me

 

[MT79]

can you change a FOWLR into a reef without restarting the whole system?

As long as you are careful with any meds you add to the tank. Copper is lethal to inverts (ie. shrimp, coral etc.) in even minute amounts and can stay in a system forever.

Is there a lighting amount you want to target with a FOWLR (wpg)?

If your using LR it's a good idea to have approx. 2 wpg or more to keep the coralline etc. alive. FWIW I was very happy with 2x75w VHO I used on a 29 gal. That would allow you to keep a wide variety of coral down the road as well.

25lbs LR (what is difference between the types: fiji, etc?)

Some is more porous than others. The more porous the better it will filter water. I like Fiji rock a lot. It has plenty of nooks, crannies and holes for life to live in. Provides a great habitat for micro-fauna.

2 power heads (MJ1200s?)

Sounds good. Maybe a 1200 and a 900, or two 900's. Two 1200's might be a bit much for FOWLR. Also look at Seio pumps. They move a lot of water with out blasting everything with a "jet stream". They have a large, gentle flow pattern. You could probably get away with just one seio 620 in a 29 gal.

if we get a skimmer, what size gallonage should we target?

A Aqua-C remora would work very well. Buy a good skimmer the first time or you will just end up paying more for one in the future. Others will definitely agree with me lol.

what size holding tank should we get to store the SW we probably will pre-mix???

I use a small trash can.

What kind of R/O unit is good?

There are many. Many people have had good experiences and saved money by looking through e-bay.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

2 power heads (MJ1200s?)

Probably too much flow for a 29g, especially if you're just starting out FOWLR. Not sure of the flow coming out of your AC20, but I'm just guessing that you'll probably just want to add one powerhead, probably a MJ600 or 900. You can position that powerhead to counter the flow from your HOB and you'll probably have a pretty good pattern.

 

[MSU Fan]

Thank you all for the information. How is this for a development: I just bought a 55g off Craigslist! And I found another craigslist item where the poster is selling salt equipment (mostly tanks and lighting, but also a fluval 404 - $20, 10g sump - $25, and a protein skimmer for $15). I am on my way - but I think that we are still going to hook up the 29g since I still have build a stand and canopy for the 55g.

Lucky day!

 

[MSU Fan]

Ok, another question -
I am going to start with a 29g, but will soon afterwards upgrade to a 55g (soon being within a year).

For a FOWLR setup, I have read that you should target 1-2 wpg, but for a reef, you would need 4-6wpg according to what I have read. Does actinic count towards that wpg calculation (since it is actually utilized in a SW setup)?

I am working on designing the 55g stand and canopy, and obviously lighting is a big part of the system. I was considering using T8's for the initial FOWLR setup (probably 2 - 6500's, 2 actinics), and later mod'ing the canopy to add 1-2 150w MH lights when I upgrade to reef.

TIA

 

[MT79]

Does actinic count towards that wpg calculation

Yes. WPG is a general rule of thumb, and a little vague IMO, but a good starting point none the less.

 

[roka64]

Yes, WPG is WPG, weather they are MH, PC, HVOs.
Did you check with the seller if they used any meds in the tank?
If you are planning on reef, up the road, I would go ahead and get the higher wattage lighting.

 

[MSU Fan]

Did you check with the seller if they used any meds in the tank?

This tank held reptiles, so no meds were introduced into it.

If you are planning on reef, up the road, I would go ahead and get the higher wattage lighting.

So I think, for my 29g, we are probably going to have just 25w light, but no actinic to start (is that ok for a FOWLR?). I will need to talk to my wife about when we want to make the jump to the 55g. If it seems like less than 6 months, I may forgo making a canopy for the 29g to upgrade the lighting, and jump start the lighting for the 55g, which will include 2-48" T8's, 2-48" actinics, and 1 or 2 MH's (maybe 150 to start?).

So for the 29g, I will have either 25w or 50w depending on when I start the 55g.

And when the 55g starts up, minimum amount of light would be 2xT8 (72w) + 2xActinic (72w) (~144w), and will later add MH's, adding probably 2x175w MH's.

How does that plan sound?

 

[MSU Fan]

Well, I am big fan of monkey wrenches, so I thought that I would toss one in - remember how I was thinking of starting up my 29g, then progressing in the next year to the 55g? Wow, that plan has been shot down hardcore - I am going to pick up a new tank this weekend!

Check out this deal from Craigslist (oh I love it, but I hate it too!):
125g Standard AGA tank
Stand
Eheim 2250 Canister Filter
CPR overflow (275gph)
CPR CR3000 sump system
All the overflow plumbing
heaters, pumps
Coralife 2x96w 72" light fixture
I also get a large piece of driftwood (maybe a new centerpiece item)
No skimmer, and I am not sure about the return pump...

For a grand total of $600! I am going to rent a uhaul trailer this weekend, and drive an hour and a 1/2 to get it (that's one way, but a small price to pay for this!). On top of that, I am going to pick up a 24g NanoCube Deluxe with stand for $150 in the same area!

My savings account is draining this week, but it's ok - the wife says that the SW tank is an "investment"

So now I have to spend a much larger amount on LR than I was planning on, so that will delay me a while. But now I don't know what kind of skimmer I should get for this size tank - any recommendations? Also, for the LR - how does 100lbs of base rock + 60-90lbs of LR sound?

My wife and I are currently evaluating floor strength for where we want to put this, and I may need to consider reinforcements (right now, the only "good" wall spot is along 1 (maybe 2, but doubtful) joists, and not across the joists as it should be. I guess the only ray of sunshine on that location is that it will be right next to the load bearing wall of my house. So if we put it there, there is some additional strength/stability (I know, not that much!). Any good links out there for reinforcing floor joists to handle a large tank?

I tell you what, this is getting exciting!

 

[MSU Fan]

I want to run past you a preliminary stocking list for our 29g. We bought the 50lbs of LR last weekend (which was cured at the LFS), and are waiting for it to complete its cycle.

Right now, the tank has 53lbs of LR, a Penguin 1140 powerhead (300gph), and a Fluval 404 (225 gph). I don't have a skimmer yet, but would I need one with all of that circulation and filtration? If I do, I have an AC20 I can put on there with foam blocks in it - will that work?

My lighting is minimal at this time, so I won't be getting any good corals for a while. A thought on that - I am going to build a DIY canopy for this tank, and I was thinking of retrofitting some T8's into it (thinking 4 bulbs for 68w total). Should I plan to put 2 6500's + 2 actinics, or 3 6500s + 1 actinic? With that level of lighting, would that cover most softies and some LPS, or do I need to go higher for the LPS corals?

After the cycle has completed, we are looking at this stocking list for that tank.

1 Royal Gramma
1 Purple Firefish
1 Ocellaris Clown
1 Blue/Green Chromis
1 Lawnmower Blenny

How will this group fair together, and what order would be the best for adding these guys?


And for inverts:
either a skunk cleaner, peppermint, or fire shrimp
turbo snails
cerith snails
fighting conchs
nassarius snails
either a sally lightfoot, emerald mithrax, arrow crab

Are there any compatibility issues with this group? Also, I really have no idea what kind of quantities of inverts I should have in there, so any help there would be great.

TIA

 

[Devilishturtles]

What happened to the 125?

If it were my tank, I'd ditch the Fluval 404 and get a skimmer. Canisters can actually cause more trouble than they are worth in a saltwater tank, with nitrates building up. This isn't an issue if you clean it regularly, but some people still use them for flow, just remove the foam blocks.

Your lighting sounds good. I don't know the specs on T8 lightings. T5 lighting will get you plenty of light at that number though, so I assume even with a lesser strength light that the T8's will be enough. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

About the fish, you might have issues with the gramma and firefish, and you might not. Depends on the aggressiveness of those fish. The clown is a good idea, but ideally chromis like to be in a group. Finally, I would definitley skip the lawnmower blenny for now. They need a well established tank with plenty of film algae and food. Many of them starve to death quickly, and not all will eat prepared foods (most do not). I would look into either a pair of clowns maybe, and a firefish. Or maybe 3 chromis and no clowns.

Your inverts look fine to me, except that I'd skip the sally lightfoot. Great crabs when they are juvis, mean ones when they get mature.

 

[MSU Fan]

What happened to the 125?

Oh, we are picking that up next weekend! I think though, because of its size, we may make that a fish only setup for now. We are making the 29g a reef.

So for the 29, maybe an abbreviated stocking list would look something like this:

1 Occellaris Clown
1 Firefish
1 Coral Beauty or Flame Angel
1 Blenny (down the line - ideally we would rather have a scooter anyway )

Maybe an Emerald Mithrax crab, 1 Fire Shrimp, and how many of each of the snails? What about a decorator crab (the wife loves them!)?

Thanks for the help!