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Old 12-28-2005, 06:15 PM   #11
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its not that your damsels are junk fish, its that there is an opinion that it is cruel to cycle a tank with any live fish. it exposes them to massive amounts of ammonia and nitrites that is often lethal to the fish or cause permanent harm to them.

bubbles in the water are not preferd in a saltwater set up. agitating the surface with a power head pointed slightly up is a better way to help gas exchange.

you will eventually remove your UG filter. i can almost guarantee that. i have never been steered wrong by this fourm. that cant be said of most LFS.
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Old 12-28-2005, 06:40 PM   #12
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Well I never had any intention on being cruel, and I definitly don't want any permanent harm or death to my fish....

I was following the information given by my LFS's before finding this forum. But I guarentee it would be more cruel to kill the fish by removing them from the tank, because the LFS doesn't buy fish back... So my only options are to leave them there, or take them out having no other place to put them, so they'd be dead...

-TheChad
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Old 12-28-2005, 07:35 PM   #13
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Check to see if there are any other reefers in your area who wouldn't mind taking them off of your hands. The lfs may not buy them back, but they might just take them back. Since your tank is only 1.5 weeks old, removing the ugf at this point would be far better, and easier, rather than later. I doubt that you have enough good/bad bacteria build-up in the sand bed yet to cause more issues than your tank is already going through due to the cycling process, if you take out the ugf. The riser tubes will eventually get in the way and make you curse yourself for not taking it out in the beginning. Also, got any pics?
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Old 12-28-2005, 09:30 PM   #14
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Hey Chad. You have gotten some very good advice here, whether you take it or leave it is your choice, but it really looks like you are leaving it. It sounds like the LFS you found is very "old school". UGF, dolimite and cycling with live fish are all outdated tecniques. There are much better options available to you (as mentioned here). Starting over before it is too late is not a bad idea. A little hassel now can save you big headaches in the future. Like I said, this is your tank and you can do with it as you like. I can tell you that the advice you have gotten here seems to be much more sound then what you have been given elsewhere. The fact that you are just begining to see NH3 and have no detectable NO2 shows that you are at the begining of the cycle. It is not too late to change things if you wish. If you are intent on keepng the damsels then you will need to do water changes to keep toxic levels less then lethal. This will cost more money in salt and prolong the cycle but your fish will appreciate you for it. Remember, we are just trying to help.
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Old 12-28-2005, 11:34 PM   #15
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So If i were to scrap what I have now (UGF), What exactly do you guys suggest? What brand/model/type HOB filter? PowerHead or Not?

I want to do it right, but I don't want to spend extra money that is not needed. in about 3-5 years we will be building a house, when that happens we will have a fish tank built into the wall between 2 rooms, (I dunno the gallons yet), When we set up that tank, we will get all the right stuff at the beginning when we set it up.

This tank is to teach us. We will transfer the clowns into the larger tank assuming they are still alive.

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Old 12-29-2005, 12:12 AM   #16
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Do you plan on keeoing corals in this tank? I would first invest in some LR(live rock), and in a 29g, it could be done pretty cheaply. This can be transferred into the new tank when it's gets set-up, as can the sand. Adding LR now will make the cycle a bit "harder" in terms of cycling, but is well worth it's weight in gold after it's been seeded and cycled. With LR, you can ditch the HOB filter as well, unless you want to use it for media or flow. Definitely a powerhead, maybe a single MJ1200 or a couple of 600's or 900's. Tank looks clean(I remember those days, before coralline). Also, what kind of lighting do you have?
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:42 AM   #17
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Stress Zyme is rarely used in SW, and from what I know would not help cycle the tank any faster. A cycle is a natural process that usually takes a month or so. Everyone on this board advocates the use of the fishless cycle method ... i.e. using a raw uncooked coctail shrimp from your local grocery store.

As far as the Damsels are concerned, not everyone sees them as "junk" fish, the reason most people don't keep them here is because of their agressive nature and from experience I can tell you they will bully a fish to death. I had a yeloow tail and added a Perc. Clown and within 10 minutes of the Clown being in the tank, the yellow tail was already pushing him around. When you want to spend $50-100 dollars on a fish and you have a $4 dollar fish that will kill him you start to think about it.

"Junk" fish or not the process of a tank cycle will surely endanger the fish. High Ammonia and nitirite levels are harmful to any fish and that is why many people suggest using the fishless method!

As for the UGF ... I'm sure arguments can be made as to pros and cons of having one, the same with a DSB and bare bottom tank. Some people like them some don't. I for one don't run a UGF, but have a friend that does and he has never had any problems. If you have the chance to take it out now while your tank cycles ... and it won't cause a huge teardown then by all means take it out. If not keep it and make sure you keep up with your water changes and everything shoudl be ok!

Trust me when people say that the information is better here than at your LFS, IT IS! 100% better. Like previously stated the LFS will tell you anything to sell you anything. I saw a lady walk out my LFS with a $3800 dollar 55gal. setup .... and this wasn't even including LR, LS, or anything else. $3800 8O 8O 8O 8O .... I never went back to that LFS after I told the manager he ripped her off. He told me I'm in the business to make money man, and if she want to spend it ... I'll take it!!!!

Good Luck and keep asking questions, it's the best way to learn! No question is a stupid question in this hobby. As we all know were in it for the sake of the fishies!
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:59 AM   #18
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oh by the way ...

I have a 29 gallon myself, and I run 2 Maxi Jet 900's and an Eclipse sytem 3 hood ... this hood has the lighting and filtration included. I have about 58lbs. of LR and a 4.5" DSB. 1 Perc. clown, Royal Gramma (new addition), Cleaner shrimp, Hermits, Snails, and a CC star!
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:44 AM   #19
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I would look into getting live rock as you main filtration, you can not get any better then LR. UGF its your choice if you keep it or toss it, I say toss it, its Old School thinking and will be a issue down the road were talking months, years later you will have issues.
So we say take it out now while the tank is young and there is not much in there to disturb.
There is no instant cycle product out there that works like they say. So IMO don't waste your money on the instant cycle products.
keep testing the ammonia and nitrites, when these levels get high a water change will be needed to keep levels low enough to keep the fish alive.
The advice given here is from experience and we are not in it to make a quick $$$ like the LFS. There are a lot of LFS out there that have been in business for years and they are still teaching the Old methods of SW/Reef keeping. Times and products have changed in the past 20 years so not all LFS keep up with the times.
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:38 PM   #20
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Thanks for the advise guy's..


I talked to the wife, she doesn't want to get rid of anything in our current tank... But we will be starting a new tank (Our stand holds 2 29 gal tanks. She wants to start a tank with live rock, and she has agreed we will put the damsels in the new tank with the LR and put our clowns, shrimp, CC Star in this tank after it cycles.

We will cycle the new tank with the raw shrimp Fishless methoid as you all have suggested, before transfering the damsels.

As I mentioned before, after we learn from thease 2 tanks, and we build the inwall tank into our new home, we will look to transfer all our LR and fish into the large tank.

I assume damsels and other aggressive fish if placed into a large enough tank will take pick a small territory and leave other fish alone?

We definitly apperciate all the advice.

Thanks,

-TheChad
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