Starting a 29g tank, Few questions about setup & fish..

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TheChad

Aquarium Advice FINatic
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
568
Location
Warrensburg, IL
Hey All,


I Have set up a 29g tank about a week ago. I have already stabilized the tempature at 78degrees, and the SG is at 1.023.

I have added 2 Damsel's to cycle the tank, 1 Blue Damsel, and 1 Yellow tail Damsel.

Currently we have a 150 watt heater, an UGF, a 23" bubble wall, and a 70Gal Pump.

The LFS said the UGF was better than the Bio Wheel type filter, but several here have suggested that was not true, and the Bio Wheel would be better. In any case, I have now purchased a Bio Wheel to use in this tank with the UGF, You can't have too much filtration right?

In a previous post I had given a list of fish we had hoped to have in this tank, but was advised with this tank, we should only have 2 3" fish. Will having the Bio Wheel filter along with the UGF allow for more bio load?

We would like to keep the 2 Damsel's we currently have, and we'd like to add 2 clowns, a fire shrimp, and a choclate chip star fish.

Also, Should I still get a Power Head now that I have a Bio Wheel? Or would a Power Head on the UGF work better than adding the Bio Wheel? I havent yet opened the Bio Wheel, So I am open to some input/suggestion on this....


I also bought a Water test kit, so I wouldn't have to take my water to the LFS all the time. How often should I be testing the water and what changes am I looking for to know when It is save to add our clowns?

Thanks,

-TheChad

P.S. I also wanted to ask if I should be doing Water Changes every week before the tank has cycled or not?
 
Okay..

The undergravel filter is not good to have in a sw tank. They trap detritus and raise ammonia levels etc. THey are only really useful in a fw tank, even than they are still somewhat junk.

Biowheels are also not for sw tanks. They are nitrite and nitrate factories, that meaning " bad algae makers" lol.

All you really need for this set-up is a simple HOB power filter, possibly a small powerhead but it really is not needed.

You should start changing water after the cycle has finished. After that every two to 4 weeks should suffice depending on your bioload.

I would get rid of the damsels and get the two clowns, shrimp, the star if you don't want some types of inverts, and possibly one or two small fish.

When cycling I would test the water every couple of days. After it's cycled once every week or even as long as every 3 weeks should be okay. I test mine like every once a month or every 2 months, thats just me though..my tanks parameters never change but you may want to do it more often when you first start.
 
flamingonhot said:
Okay..

The undergravel filter is not good to have in a sw tank. They trap detritus and raise ammonia levels etc. THey are only really useful in a fw tank, even than they are still somewhat junk.

Biowheels are also not for sw tanks. They are nitrite and nitrate factories, that meaning " bad algae makers" lol.

All you really need for this set-up is a simple HOB power filter, possibly a small powerhead but it really is not needed.

You should start changing water after the cycle has finished. After that every two to 4 weeks should suffice depending on your bioload.

I would get rid of the damsels and get the two clowns, shrimp, the star if you don't want some types of inverts, and possibly one or two small fish.

When cycling I would test the water every couple of days. After it's cycled once every week or even as long as every 3 weeks should be okay. I test mine like every once a month or every 2 months, thats just me though..my tanks parameters never change but you may want to do it more often when you first start.

Isn't the Bio Wheel a HOB filter? A power head is only for the UGF isn't it? Also why should i get rid of the damsels?

I'm kind of confused, because you said I should get rid of the UGF, but than you said "Possibly a Power Head" which as far as I understand, only goes with the UGF!


Thanks,

-TheChad
 
The undergravel filter is not good to have in a sw tank. They trap detritus and raise ammonia levels etc. THey are only really useful in a fw tank, even than they are still somewhat junk.
I have to agree wtih this statement. Ditch the UGF, its old technology.
Biowheels are also not for sw tanks. They are nitrite and nitrate factories
This is not entirely true. They do a very nice job of removing NO2. They can cause increased NO3 over time if there is not enough other biological filtration and you slack on the water changes.

I would bring the damsels back to the LFS and do a fishless cycle. Damsels are very aggressive fish and will likely become extrememly territorial when anything else is added to the tank.

You can certainly run a powerhead without an UGF. Most on this site do. They are great at providing circulation and preventing dead spots.
 
The powerhead's I've seen, mount to the UGF tubes. So I guess I don't know what your talking about....

Our 2 damsels get along very well, and actually share the same "Home" They both are often together around the tank.

What I don't understand is why the information available here, and at the LFS's is sooo different. Not just 1 LFS, but several, all give the same information. The LSF that i bought my stuff from have UGF in all their tanks, and have had several tanks up and running for 20+ years according to the owner.

I apperciate all the information. It's soo hard to make a choice as to what to do.

-TheChad
 
believe me, you'll get more info, and better at that, than any lfs. Here, people are concerned with your tanks/inhabs, and there(lfs) are mainly out for your $$$. That's not always 100% true, but almost.
Ditch the UGF
go with a HOB powerfilter,no bio-wheel
powerheads come with tank mounting equipment, so you can place them anywhere in the tank you want. They come in all sizes and flow rates.
The best thing to do at this point is read and read some more and ask questions. First hand experiences are more informative and go farther in what can be learned.
Good luck
 
Our 2 damsels get along very well, and actually share the same "Home" They both are often together around the tank.
The issue is not between the two damsels, rather between the two damsels and any other fish you put in the tank.
 
Well said guys. The UGF filter is "bad". I had a 29 after trying to go the cheaper route(UGF and HO filters) finally invested in a refugium. Night and day results. No one ever said setting up a SW tank was cheap. But if you read these forums and ask question. You will probably have less headaches and a healthier tank. Best of luck to you.
M
 
i very strongly support cycling your tank with a few small pieces of raw shrimp instead of live fish. cycling with live fish is an old idea. it is basically like trying to live in your garage with the car running for 4-6 weeks. very hard to to breath and sick all the time

a small power filter like a penguin or aquaclear would work well for you. you can also go with live sand and live rock. a good option would be to put about 40lbs of sand ( NOT CRUSHED CORAL OR GRAVEL) in your tank and a few large pieces of dry base rock. run the power filter to help out but eventually the rock and sand will house the good bacteria you need to keep your tank healthy. that is what the power filter does. it is a place for good bacteria to grow and water to be pulled over it.

optimally to run a tank without a filter you need about 1-2 lbs of live rock and 1-2 lbs of live sand. your sand and rock will become "live" over time as things grow on it.

also, like already said, power heads have several functions and several configurations. in saltwater they are used to move water around and produce current to eliminate dead spots

before i found this forum i read every word on this site http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/a_3.htm?terms=saltwater

it is very useful and i find it to be very accurate
good luck

steve r
 
I tested my water today, the test results showed: 8.0 High Range pH, 0.25ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite, and 0ppm Nitrate.

My tank has been established for about 1.5 weeks, and has had 2 damsels since day 2.

The water test kit recommends a product called "Stress Zyme" made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (The maker of the test kit) to cycle the tank quicker.

Is that product safe for the Damsels? Or is there a way to cycle the tank quicker with out getting rid of the damsels??

I know a lot of people don't like Damsels, and they are a "Junk" fish, but my wife and I like them. The only way we would get rid of them, is if they do fight with our clowns, but we will deal with that if the time comes.

We have dolomite (Spelling?) as our rocks at the bottom. What type of HOB filter are you guys suggesting?

The UGF is already in place, and I am pretty sure removing it would cause serious issues with disturbing the tank... So unless it posses to be a problem I will probably just leave it, and add an additional filter since everyone here is saying the UGF isn't very good. At the lease the bubbles from the UGF will help add oxygen to the water.

Thanks,

-TheChad
 
its not that your damsels are junk fish, its that there is an opinion that it is cruel to cycle a tank with any live fish. it exposes them to massive amounts of ammonia and nitrites that is often lethal to the fish or cause permanent harm to them.

bubbles in the water are not preferd in a saltwater set up. agitating the surface with a power head pointed slightly up is a better way to help gas exchange.

you will eventually remove your UG filter. i can almost guarantee that. i have never been steered wrong by this fourm. that cant be said of most LFS.
final words of wisdom... nothing in saltwater happens fast except mistakes

good luck
steve r
 
Well I never had any intention on being cruel, and I definitly don't want any permanent harm or death to my fish....

I was following the information given by my LFS's before finding this forum. But I guarentee it would be more cruel to kill the fish by removing them from the tank, because the LFS doesn't buy fish back... So my only options are to leave them there, or take them out having no other place to put them, so they'd be dead...

-TheChad
 
Check to see if there are any other reefers in your area who wouldn't mind taking them off of your hands. The lfs may not buy them back, but they might just take them back. Since your tank is only 1.5 weeks old, removing the ugf at this point would be far better, and easier, rather than later. I doubt that you have enough good/bad bacteria build-up in the sand bed yet to cause more issues than your tank is already going through due to the cycling process, if you take out the ugf. The riser tubes will eventually get in the way and make you curse yourself for not taking it out in the beginning. Also, got any pics?
 
Hey Chad. You have gotten some very good advice here, whether you take it or leave it is your choice, but it really looks like you are leaving it. It sounds like the LFS you found is very "old school". UGF, dolimite and cycling with live fish are all outdated tecniques. There are much better options available to you (as mentioned here). Starting over before it is too late is not a bad idea. A little hassel now can save you big headaches in the future. Like I said, this is your tank and you can do with it as you like. I can tell you that the advice you have gotten here seems to be much more sound then what you have been given elsewhere. The fact that you are just begining to see NH3 and have no detectable NO2 shows that you are at the begining of the cycle. It is not too late to change things if you wish. If you are intent on keepng the damsels then you will need to do water changes to keep toxic levels less then lethal. This will cost more money in salt and prolong the cycle but your fish will appreciate you for it. Remember, we are just trying to help.
 
So If i were to scrap what I have now (UGF), What exactly do you guys suggest? What brand/model/type HOB filter? PowerHead or Not?

I want to do it right, but I don't want to spend extra money that is not needed. in about 3-5 years we will be building a house, when that happens we will have a fish tank built into the wall between 2 rooms, (I dunno the gallons yet), When we set up that tank, we will get all the right stuff at the beginning when we set it up.

This tank is to teach us. We will transfer the clowns into the larger tank assuming they are still alive.

-TheChad
 

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Do you plan on keeoing corals in this tank? I would first invest in some LR(live rock), and in a 29g, it could be done pretty cheaply. This can be transferred into the new tank when it's gets set-up, as can the sand. Adding LR now will make the cycle a bit "harder" in terms of cycling, but is well worth it's weight in gold after it's been seeded and cycled. With LR, you can ditch the HOB filter as well, unless you want to use it for media or flow. Definitely a powerhead, maybe a single MJ1200 or a couple of 600's or 900's. Tank looks clean(I remember those days, before coralline). Also, what kind of lighting do you have?
 
Stress Zyme is rarely used in SW, and from what I know would not help cycle the tank any faster. A cycle is a natural process that usually takes a month or so. Everyone on this board advocates the use of the fishless cycle method ... i.e. using a raw uncooked coctail shrimp from your local grocery store.

As far as the Damsels are concerned, not everyone sees them as "junk" fish, the reason most people don't keep them here is because of their agressive nature and from experience I can tell you they will bully a fish to death. I had a yeloow tail and added a Perc. Clown and within 10 minutes of the Clown being in the tank, the yellow tail was already pushing him around. When you want to spend $50-100 dollars on a fish and you have a $4 dollar fish that will kill him you start to think about it.

"Junk" fish or not the process of a tank cycle will surely endanger the fish. High Ammonia and nitirite levels are harmful to any fish and that is why many people suggest using the fishless method!

As for the UGF ... I'm sure arguments can be made as to pros and cons of having one, the same with a DSB and bare bottom tank. Some people like them some don't. I for one don't run a UGF, but have a friend that does and he has never had any problems. If you have the chance to take it out now while your tank cycles ... and it won't cause a huge teardown then by all means take it out. If not keep it and make sure you keep up with your water changes and everything shoudl be ok!

Trust me when people say that the information is better here than at your LFS, IT IS! 100% better. Like previously stated the LFS will tell you anything to sell you anything. I saw a lady walk out my LFS with a $3800 dollar 55gal. setup .... and this wasn't even including LR, LS, or anything else. $3800 8O 8O 8O 8O .... I never went back to that LFS after I told the manager he ripped her off. He told me I'm in the business to make money man, and if she want to spend it ... I'll take it!!!!

Good Luck and keep asking questions, it's the best way to learn! No question is a stupid question in this hobby. As we all know were in it for the sake of the fishies! :wink:
 
oh by the way ...

I have a 29 gallon myself, and I run 2 Maxi Jet 900's and an Eclipse sytem 3 hood ... this hood has the lighting and filtration included. I have about 58lbs. of LR and a 4.5" DSB. 1 Perc. clown, Royal Gramma (new addition), Cleaner shrimp, Hermits, Snails, and a CC star!
 
I would look into getting live rock as you main filtration, you can not get any better then LR. UGF its your choice if you keep it or toss it, I say toss it, its Old School thinking and will be a issue down the road were talking months, years later you will have issues.
So we say take it out now while the tank is young and there is not much in there to disturb.
There is no instant cycle product out there that works like they say. So IMO don't waste your money on the instant cycle products.
keep testing the ammonia and nitrites, when these levels get high a water change will be needed to keep levels low enough to keep the fish alive.
The advice given here is from experience and we are not in it to make a quick $$$ like the LFS. There are a lot of LFS out there that have been in business for years and they are still teaching the Old methods of SW/Reef keeping. Times and products have changed in the past 20 years so not all LFS keep up with the times.
 
Thanks for the advise guy's..


I talked to the wife, she doesn't want to get rid of anything in our current tank... But we will be starting a new tank (Our stand holds 2 29 gal tanks. She wants to start a tank with live rock, and she has agreed we will put the damsels in the new tank with the LR and put our clowns, shrimp, CC Star in this tank after it cycles.

We will cycle the new tank with the raw shrimp Fishless methoid as you all have suggested, before transfering the damsels.

As I mentioned before, after we learn from thease 2 tanks, and we build the inwall tank into our new home, we will look to transfer all our LR and fish into the large tank.

I assume damsels and other aggressive fish if placed into a large enough tank will take pick a small territory and leave other fish alone?

We definitly apperciate all the advice.

Thanks,

-TheChad
 
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