starting out questions

[xcugat]

Hello,
I have recently joined this forum but have had freshwater fish for many years. I have wanted to set up a saltwater tank for a long time. I have had a double decker iron stand with two 20 gallon tanks, and I was originally going to use one of these for saltwater when the fish inside died a natural death. That has happened and I have stripped down the tank and was originally going to make a nano out of it, but now I am having second thoughts.

I have just graduated college and am limited in my funds, so I thought the nano would be the way to go. But the more I think about it the more it seems like a waste, beacause I will set it all up and then only be able to have 2 or 3 fish and then have to buy all over again if I decide to go larger

So now I have begun pricing out a larger tank, probably either a 55 or 75 gallon tank. I plan on going with a iron stand or a homemade wood one. I live in Westchester county New York, which as some members may know is a very expensive place to live. I was quoted for a complete set up of a 75 gallon with everything except fish at a LFS and it came to 6,269 dollars. Now there were several unnecessary items on there but still to me that was insane. I plan on getting everything second hand, and consider myself to be pretty handy. That being said, what do you guys think I should go for a small nano to start to go hog wild and set up a 75 gallon? How much do you think a bear bones set up --no bells or whistles (other than a good lighting/filter) .would cost?
thanks alot for any advice you may have

Also on a side note, one of the only affordable LFS around is having a tank sale 75 gallon brand new 113.00 55gallon 89.00 how are these prices they seem very good to me (but I would prefer used)

 

[Ziggy953]

That is a very good price for a 75 gallon tank!

I would not start out with a small tank in SW. There are so many things that can cause your tank to crash and crash quickly. Water volume is your friend when doing a SW tank. The larger you can start out with the better success you will have.

Basically you are going to need:

A tank
Stand
Lights (I suggest to start out T5s with or with out MH (MH are expensive))
A decent skimmer
Sand
Rock
TEST KITS!!!!! (Ammonia, NitrAte, NitrIte, PH, eventually Calcium, MG, Phosphates)
Salt mix
If you can afford it an RO/DI unit (look on ebay)
Pumps (if you are going to have a sump, and I highly suggest it, you will need a decent retun pump)

If you are a handy person as you say, then a lot of the things you need for your tank you can do your self. Buy a DIY/retro fit lighting kit and wire it up yourself. Build your own stand and canopy. Make your sump a 20g tank is not too expensive and much less then buying a pre-built sump!

Shop online for all your equipment except the tank. Check on craigslist for your area, people are always selling off equipment, live rock and other things you may need. I even picked up a free 55gallon tank off of craigslist.

I would not buy any equipment from the LFS they usually have a huge mark up and you can get everything you need online at a fraction of the cost

 

[xcugat]

Glad to hear that that is a good price How much is the regular going rate for just a 75 gallon tank sans anything else?
In regards to filtration, initally I was planning on using my aquaclear hang on the back filters, but it seems in speaking to people that they would be inadequate. That leaves undergravel, which I understand to be junk for the reef application, and finally refugiums and sumps or a combination of the two. Basically, a sump has a wet section with coral debris/media and and a dry section with bioballs, and a refugium would have the same but also lighting and food for organims like copeopods etc. If such is the case building a sump seems to be quite easy--get a 20 or 30 gallon tank and then divide it with a plastic sheet or another smaller tank nested in and have half wet half dry with bioballs. Making it that way would save me the insane 459.00 quote for the same thing in the LFS. Would such a set up require additional filtration, or are there better filtration methods-thanks again

 

[melosu58]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f14/stock-list-tips-maintaining-your-sw-tank-73477.html

 

[cmor1701d]

Think in terms of LiveRock for filtration together with a protein skiimer, and a sump (can be added later).

On a budget I would go with about 80% base rock and 20% LR. The base rock I linked to is on sale for $29.96 for a 50 pound box (plus $21 shipping). That's a $1.00 per pound. The rock is bright white but will color up in a few months. You want about 1½ - 2 pounds of rock per gallon of tank volume.

Get a decent quality protein skimmer, a couple of Hydor Koralia power heads, a retrun pump for the sump you build and you're almost there. You can use play sand from Home Depot or Lowes for the substrate (sand box sand).

A wet dry has the sections you described. All section is a sump are wet and do not use bioballs. LR rubble yes, bioballs - no. Check out Melev's Reef site for DIY sumps, etc. Great pictures and diagrams there too.

 

[xcugat]

I went over to house of Fins in greenwich conn. Today and took a look around to get some ideas. The staff was very helpful, and according to them the wet sump is the way to go, rather than a wet- dry filter with bioballs which is really only good for fish. He said that the bioball bacteria would compete with the live rock bacteria, and too many nitrates would be created

In regards to live rock, I had planned to buy it online, where it is much cheaper from a site like liveaquaria.com. I would have liked to go the route of some live and some plain rock that would become live, but the concern expressed at house of fins was that the pound/pound and a half per gallon would not be met for several months untill the plain rock became fully live setting me back timewise. I know the nitrifying bacteria will set up on base rock quickly but how long before it really coats it? Also, They claimed that tonga rock was far superior than figi which was appently too dense and hard to stack. Is this true? Can rock types be mixed and still look good and which if any is best?
thanks

 

[cmor1701d]

Base rock will become live (coated with bacterai) during the cycle. It will take months for it to beome covered in coraline algae, but it will still be part of the filtration system from day one. So the lfs gave some bad advice there, probably hoping to sell you more LR.

I have 3 different type of LR (4 is you count the base) in my tank. They all look the same except for shape.

 

[Ziggy953]

I would say get a good mix of rock for your tank. You don't want solid rock you want rock with holes and crevises and things like that. Basically you want to get rock that looks like the way you want it to look. I have many different types of rock in my system. Get what you like. The rock will do its job no matter what it is fiji or tonga or whatever. It's the amount of rock that makes a difference. 1.5 - 2lbs per gallon.

 

[xcugat]

i dont think that I was being bamboozled at the LFS because his concern was not that the rock would not become live but if it would get enough bacterial growth fast enough to allow for fish--during the cycle process would the rock get enough bacterial growth to allow for fish with out an ammonia spike?

 

[Ziggy953]

You shouldn't have fish in your tank during the cycling process. If your LFS said that you needed fish during your cycling process then they are going on OLD out dated information on how to cycle a tank.

Go to the article section of this site and read about cycling a tank.

 

[roka64]

That's some good advice. I do have to disagree about the bioballs oucompeting the LR's beneficial bacteria. They are one in the same.

 

[xcugat]

The LFS didn't say to put fish in during the cycle, perhaps I was not clear. What I ment was after the cycle will there be enough bacteria on the new bare rock plus the small amount of live rock to cover the 1.5 pound per gallon live rock rule. The concern with the bioballs is that the balls will get dirtied over time, and this combined with the bacteria creates alot of nitrates, which combined with the liverock would be overkill?

 

[Ziggy953]

After your cycle you are going to want to add fish slowly to allow your bacteria to "catch up" with the bioload. I don't like bioballs for a bunch of reasons! The last time I was at the beach I didn't see any floating around in the ocean. Go with the LR and LR Rubble When adding your fish do it slowly.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

xcugat... let's try this explanation - I sense confusion!...

The rock is just a place for the bacteria to call home, same as what the bioballs would be. Assuming you have a good amount of live rock in your tank (say 1-2 lbs/gallon), the AMOUNT of bacteria you will end up with has nothing to do with how much rock you have. The bacteria doesn't "fill up" whatever rock you have. What controls the bacteria population in the long run is how big of an ammonia source you have. You could have 1lb/gallon or 3lb/gallon of rock in your tank, but you'd have more or less the same amount of bacteria.

That's why the suggestion to stock your tank slowly. Each new fish adds additional ammonia and the bacterial population needs to catch up to this new bioload.

The only difference between "live" rock and base/bare rock is that "live" rock is populated with bacteria. By the time you are done with your cycle, ALL your rock will be "live" regardless of what it was to start with.

I like your comment Ziggy about bioballs in the ocean! Made me chuckle!

 

[cmor1701d]

The only difference between "live" rock and base/bare rock is that "live" rock is populated with bacteria. By the time you are done with your cycle, ALL your rock will be "live" regardless of what it was to start with.

Not just the rock, but any surface will be coated with bacteria. That includes sand. That is why you can start out with dry sand which will become live sand (coated with bacteria) in short order .

 

[xcugat]

Thanks for the live rock clarification.
I also wanted to get an idea of how most people set up their filters. The sump has already been mentioned, and I plan to go this route, but I would like to know what other people use and the success/failure that you have had. In regards to the bioballs I as well as others in this thread think that it is not natural or nessisary, Do you think they are unnessisary/detrimental in a wet dry sump set up. Is a purely wet sump is the better way to go?

 

[Ziggy953]

I use a refugium with LR and Macro algae as part of my filtration. My display tank has about 150lbs of rock in it. My Fuge has another 15 lbs of rock in it. I have a very large very powerful skimmer on my system. Wet/Dry filters are used mainly on fish only systems. Like I said before I like to go as natural as possible with my system. Live rock, Live sand tons and tons of Macro algae and a good skimmer. All of those combined create good filtration of my system.


Here is what I have under my tank.

This is my Refugium (20g Tall) as you can see it is completely full of macro algae and you can just make out some live rock on the right. There is live rock from side to side and stacked up fairly high on the right side of the tank.

This is my return tank. The skimmer is directly behind this tank and it dumps into it. The bulkhead you see at the back is the return from my 55g frag tank that is plumbed into the system and on the right you see the bulkhead coming out of the refugium and dumping into the return. This along with my LR is what I use to filter my tank.
I upgraded to this 20G tall last night.

In the saltwater members show off pics forum have a look at my tank. I am very successful with this setup. I don't have algae issues (there is some buble algae but that came from some live rock I got) my water stays clear, my corals are growing at an amazing pace. All in all my system is very healthy.

 

[xcugat]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Sorry for the delay but I have been busy as of late--trying to find a job among other things!
I just bit the bullet and bought a 75 gallon drilled tank with overflow box/plumbing for 230 dollars (which is more than the non drilled of course but I am limited with room so I did not have space behind tank for overflow box) How was that for a price?

The tank will arrive friday, and I will then begin to build the stand. I am now working out the filtration method. I have a 55 gallon that I need to reseal (see this thread) http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f60/tank-resealing-101544.html which I will use as a sump so long as it doesnt blow out on me.

The issue now is the other filtration. I plan on eventually getting a skimmer, but I have heard it is not really necessary untill the tank is established. Is such the case?
The tank will be a reef tank with live rock and sand for biological filtration (berlin method), and I wanted to know if other mechanical filtration ie, a filter sock or floss is necessary--I am coming from FW using aquaclear filters for years so I just want to know if I need these extras for SW or the biological filtration will suffice. Does carbon have any place in SW filtration?

 

[Ziggy953]

If you have 1.5 to 2lbs of LR per gallon of water in your display along with a refugium and a skimmer you don't need any other source of filtration. I run carbon on my tank only when I need to other then that nature takes care of my filtration. Using a filter sock is a good idea when you are doing something in the tank that may stir things up a bit. I put one on my drain lines when I'm working in the tank just to keep from mucking up my sumps.

 

[cmor1701d]

That's a decent price on the tank. The skimmer is not necessary immediately but you want to add it right after the cycle is over and you start to add livestock. Other than that, what Ziggy said and partail water changes should be all you need.

You can run carbon in the sump when you want to polish the water.