Thoughts on 90 Gallon setup

[toddwess]

I have attached a pic of my proposed 90 gallon tank setup, and have a few questions. . .

How long can I keep replacement water (salted, heated and aerated) in the 50 gallon drum before it has to be ditched and re-made?

Where should I put a sump/refugium and what would be the recommended size?

I have a 600gph pump in the filter for returning water to the tank. How many power heads should I get, and what should be their power and placement in the tank?

Any additional comments are welcome, too!

thanks,
Todd

 

[toddwess]

It won't let me attach a picture, so please try the following link . . .

http://www.toddwess.com/90gallon.jpg

Be sure to stretch your explorer window to see it in full scale.

Thanks again for any help!

todd

 

[loganj]

You can keep the water almost indefinitely. Keep a lid on it to keep light, dust, and other stuff out...also to control evap.

My first thought is that the 600 gph pump isn't nearly enough. I'd be suprised if you get much more than 400 gph by the time the water gets up to your tank. You need a minimum of 900 gph and more would be better. My thinking is that you'd want at least three MJ1200's in there running on a wavemaker. One on each end of the tank and one about 1/4 of the way across the back of the tank pointing at about a 45* angle. JMHO.

 

[toddwess]

Thanks for the advice - that's right - 600 gph is going to do practically nothing.

I can keep the 600 pump, and add a 400 to it, right? Just have two in there for a total of about 900 gph after the 4' head?

Thanks,
Todd

 

[fishfreek]

I can keep the 600 pump, and add a 400 to it, right? Just have two in there for a total of about 900 gph after the 4' head?

no. Unless the pump acutally does 600GPH at 4' head then it probably is designed to pump 600GPH at 0' head. Thus by the time you push the water up 4' your doing as logan said more like 400GPH if not less than that.

Find a pump that will push the desired amount of water at the desired head. So you might have to buy say a 1200GPH pump to get 900GPH at 4' head. (the preceeding was an example)

Also consiter the size of pumps for your storage vessle and your drain vessle. The reason is if you undersize those pumps you could take forever to do a water change by the time you factor in head and distance if the distance from/to the tank is of any great lenght.

Overall i think your concept looks very good in that if you can get it all working how you want then you will have an almost automated setup. My question is with the remove water pump in the basement how will you measure how much water your taking out of the system? I mean will you rig this up to a switch on the main floor so you can monitor how low the main display is getting before you cut off the switch? How have you compensated for the syphon effect in that once water starts to flow out of your tank via this drain line keeping it from draning your tank all the way down to the drain plumbing. Since you in effect will have a syphon draning the water once you get it up and over the lip of the tank you wont really need a pump on tha line execpt to get it started. Maybe you need to incorporate a ball valve on that line aswell so you can open/close the drain line.

 

[toddwess]

If this is true, then I have something else to consider.

I'm looking at purchasing a AquaClear Pro Series wet/dry filter.

It is rated for a 150 gallon tank, but can only support up to 600gph.

Their next model up is rated for 200 gallon tank and does 800gph.

Their next model up is trated for a 300 gallon tank and does 1200gph.

I only have a 90 gallon tank - how come the one for a 200 gallon tank is still not powerfull enough???

Should the filter also be able to accomodate the 900gph rate?? I imagine they are talking about the prefilter being able to handle the amount of water being kicked back in by the 1200gph pump.

 

[fishfreek]

My advice would be to not purchase the wet/dry filter but instead construct your own. The main thing that affects how much it can support when it comes to GPH is the overflow size. The standard U tube overflow with 1" U tube can support between 600 and 700 GPH. Thus the GPH limit. Using two overflows or two U tubes will increase that flow rate accordingly.

 

[fishfreek]

Also as a general note you should make sure the overflow is rated to process more GPH than your pump can put out.

 

[toddwess]

I guess I don't fully understand. If I'm building a 90 gallon reef tank with 1.5 lbs or LR per gallon, I've been told that I don't need bioballs at all and that I should take them out.

Then what is the point of having a filter at all? Once I take the bioballs out, it is just a sump. What is the point of running water (at the INCREDIBLE rate of over 900gph) into an empty acrylic box and pumping it back into the aquarium?

For a 90 gallon reef tank with 1.5 lbs of LR, could I just get away with two (2) Emperor 400 bio-wheel filters? (400gph each)??

 

[fishfreek]

Then what is the point of having a filter at all? Once I take the bioballs out, it is just a sump. What is the point of running water (at the INCREDIBLE rate of over 900gph) into an empty acrylic box and pumping it back into the aquarium?

Yep. Once you take the bioballs out the Wet/Dry is now just a sump. Thats the main difference between the two. A wet/dry is also often refered to as a trickle filter.

The point to running the water at that rate is that we are trying to reproduce the very powerful currents that existi in the natural reef. Infact 1 flow rate is rather conservitive. You dont nesseccarly need 1 flowing thru the sump. If you wanted you could do 5X thru the sump and picup the rest of the flow via powerheads or a closeed loop system but this would involve more pumps in your main tank, remember one of the uses of a sump is to get stuff out of the tank, or to have more plumbing, etc via a closed loop.

Ultimatly what your looking for is flow.

 

[toddwess]

Okay, so just thinking out loud, why don't I just buy a big bucket, put a 1200gph pump at the bottom and hook it up to my tank? Why spend $399 for these big wet/dry setup?

Do they serve no real purpose?

Todd

 

[fishfreek]

Ya you could do that. I mean get a rubbermaid tub or a smaller size tank. My sump is a 30 gal tank. You want enough room to put your heaters and skimmer, etc in/on the sump. A 5 gal bucket with a pump in it wont surve you much purpose because of the small volume of the bucket in compairson to your main tank but I would say a 20-30gal sump would be great for your 90gal setup. Sumps dont have to be clear acyrlic with mutliple chambers.

 

[toddwess]

I appreciate your patience with all my questions, but why won't the 5 gallon bucket work? There is no material in there, right?

What is the difference between an empty 5 gallon bucket and an empty 30 gallon bucket under the tank?

I promise, I'm not being beligerant - I just want to understand! Thanks for your help!

Todd

 

[fishfreek]

What is the difference between an empty 5 gallon bucket and an empty 30 gallon bucket under the tank?

Volume.

Putting a pump, heaters and hanging a skimmer and maybe a UV unit plus having your drain lines all in a 5 gal bucket will probably net you 3 gal of actual water before its so full that you overfill the bucket when you power off the pump and some of the water back fills into the sump.

Dont forget you need to provide room for the water that is in your retrurn lines and your drain lines when you power off teh pump or the pump goes off due to a power outage. The overflows wil continue to run till water is below the fringes and the return lines will back syphon uniless you put a one way flap valve in place or you drill some air bleeder holes just below the water surface. But if you do that you will still have the water that is in the plumbing flowing back down into the sump.

 

[Biggen]

What is the difference between an empty 5 gallon bucket and an empty 30 gallon bucket under the tank?

You could use a 5 gallon bucket if you wanted. But you sure won't have much room in it especially once you put the heater, skimmer, GAC (if used) sump pump, overflow pipe, etc... in it. Hell, by the time you are done you may have displaced 2-3 gallons of water and now have a 2 gallon sump that is crammed full of equipment.

It is better to buy bigger sumps so that you give yourself more room and increase the water volume of the system as well. If you are only going to increase the water volume of the system by 3-4 gallons with a 5 gallon bucket, I don't think it would even be worth the effort of building a sump.

Sumps don't have to be elaborate. I purchased a 15 gallon rubbermaid container from Wal-Mart for $3.

 

[Biggen]

Beat me by 3 minutes...

 

[toddwess]

Sumps don't have to be elaborate. I purchased a 15 gallon rubbermaid container from Wal-Mart for $3.

So you don't have a filter on your system? You only have this rubermaid container from Wal-Mart?

Why do people keep buying these terribly expensive wet/dry systems if all they need is big bucket? I just feel like I'm missing something . . .

Todd

 

[Biggen]

So you don't have a filter on your system? You only have this rubermaid container from Wal-Mart?

Tis, correct. My system is setup using the Berlin method style of filtration which basically requires LR, LS, good water flow, and strong lighting.

We have an article written just for this method of filtration in our articles section. Go here: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=10

Why do people keep buying these terribly expensive wet/dry systems if all they need is big bucket? I just feel like I'm missing something . . .

Those are mainly for FO setups. The end result of all those wet/dry filters is nitrates. In a FO system this isn't a big deal unless they get too high (i.e. >50 ppm). On the other hand, in a reef tank, one needs to keep nitrates extremely low (i.e. <5 ppm). Using the Berlin method coupled with a DSB keep those pesky nitrates down to a minimum.

If all you wanted to keep where fish (lots of fish) than a wet/dry would be your best bet. Nothing really matches their power of hording bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrate. But if you want a reef tank, you need something a little more subtile.

 

[toddwess]

OH! I forgot all about FO systems.

Y'all have really been very patient with me, but I got a TON of great information here today.

Thanks so much!! I think I'll be going with the Berlin method as well! And I'm SOOOOO glad I don't have to buy a $400 wet/dry filter.

Thanks,
Todd

 

[astride13]

One thing I saw wrong with the diagram that I wanted to point out. The "Pump to Remove Water" will not be able to prime unless you put both ends of the hose under water. If you do that and both tanks (main and "tub for rejected water") water levels are not at the same exact height, you will get a siphon in the lower direction. The best place to put the "Pump to Remove Water" is in your sump.