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Old 11-15-2005, 03:24 AM   #11
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That fish list sounds great. You can always upgrade to a reef(which you will ) with all those fish you mentioned. Butterflys are also not reef safe so you might want to think about that. Also the dwarf angels can nip at corals. For this reason I would choose the 6 line. They are awsome fish and my favorite in my reef.

You might think about passing on the goby and going with 2 clowns.

You can pick up a sand sifting star fish and nassarius snails to work the sand much better than a goby could.

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37 gal all glass
50lb LR
3' fine sand bed 1x Orange Stripe Prawn shrimp goby, 1x sixline wrassemated pair of true percula clowns, 1x CBS shrimp, 2x peppermint shrimp, 1x pistol shrimp, 1x tiger tale cuke, ~20+ snails, ~10+ hermits, 1xserpent star.
green Bubble coral, hammer coral (8 heads!) ,various Zoos,green finger leather, green star polpys ,shrooms
175w 10k MH
28w actinic 03
2x maxi jett 1200
Prizm skimmer (modded)
Hagen powerfilter(for running carbon 24/7)
nano arctica chiller
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:54 AM   #12
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why would you not change the water for the uncured liverock? liverock can and does absorb nutrients from the water why would you just let it set there and absorb PO4, N and what have you.. I would think it would be best to do water changes and it would possibly help to stick your skimmer on there during the cycling process..
I do know that its common practice but I see possible algae problems down the road.. in theory anyway..

I've been reading too much.. I think I'll go in a corner and hide somewhere..
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:27 AM   #13
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FOWLR = Fish Only With Live Rock..
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Old 11-15-2005, 07:01 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by greenmaji
why would you not change the water for the uncured liverock? liverock can and does absorb nutrients from the water why would you just let it set there and absorb PO4, N and what have you.. I would think it would be best to do water changes and it would possibly help to stick your skimmer on there during the cycling process..
I do know that its common practice but I see possible algae problems down the road.. in theory anyway..

I've been reading too much.. I think I'll go in a corner and hide somewhere..
Many beneficial creatures and algaes are able to proliferate in higher nutrient enviroments. Because of this, I actually think the first 6 months of any tank would be best spent allowing these populations to maximize before starting aggressive nutrient export and adding predators and other reef livestock. I partially attribute this, and keeping a high nutrient liverock/rubble/sand bucket for reseeding, as part of the reason for the apparent health of my 3 and 5 year old sandbeds.

In addition, I don't really believe that it is fully understood to what capacity liverock and substrates actually absorb nutrients and become exhausted (and the subsequent re-release into the water column). IMO, it is one of the newest hunches in the hobby that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I also believe that with all of the tank changes (moving to larger/smaller tanks, changing aquascaping, adding/removing livestock) that the may not even be an issue for most people to worry about the impact high nutrients will cause in the very beginning.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:11 PM   #15
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well if it was a hunch then IMO it wouldnt be possible to get anything out of them.. the fact that people get gunk out of base rock tells me that its not so much a hunch as its present and we dont know for certian if its the actuall cause of the problems.. as far as a DSB not absorbing and reliseing nutrients the things smell like a sewer when removed after a while. that tends to say alot to me..
the fact that bb and forcing LR to release its nutrents has been a method for keeping more difficult coarls in aquaculture/reaserch when the hobbiest couldnt keep them says something to me as well..
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:02 PM   #16
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I think once you are in this hobby for a while you will see that all the current methods are opinions and that each one has its own facts to be presented....in the end it is a lot similar to politics.

I won't turn this into a debate, but some things to consider with a deep sand bed that the smells are definable. Sulfur is a normal byproduct, any strong "sewer" smell is probably that of a improperly maintained substrate, while a slight smell (when the tank is empty and you dig through the substrate) would be likely to occur since this completely different approach to BB actually uses these nutrients to feed the macro/micro populations at work.

Quote:
the fact that bb and forcing LR to release its nutrents has been a method for keeping more difficult coarls in aquaculture/reaserch when the hobbiest couldnt keep them says something to me as well..
And substrates and deep substrates have been used in the commercial and aquaculture industries for decades. Then it is also important to not overlook the use of turf scrubbers, ozone, etc. in commercial and public aquariums for many, many years.

What it all tells me is that all applications most likely have there place in the hobby. I would suggest Ultimate Marine Aquariums by Paletta, it shows a great history of some of the most successful tanks and the wide variety of approaches/equipment used.
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Old 11-16-2005, 08:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsGuru
I would suggest Ultimate Marine Aquariums by Paletta
Ive heard really good things about that book.. Now your recomending I read it.. guess its time to check and see if the library has it.. :P

Sorry if I souded like I was heading for a debate..
I thought the idea behing BB was to remove debris before it breaks down.. through hyperactive wet skimming and syponing out debris before it breaks down... just a side note..
and how do you get rid of PO4 when the debris is eaten up by your sand critters? this is were the alarm bells go off in my head ( dont do DSB ) goes off in my head..
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Old 11-17-2005, 01:24 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by greenmaji
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsGuru
I would suggest Ultimate Marine Aquariums by Paletta
Ive heard really good things about that book.. Now your recomending I read it.. guess its time to check and see if the library has it.. :P

Sorry if I souded like I was heading for a debate..
I thought the idea behing BB was to remove debris before it breaks down.. through hyperactive wet skimming and syponing out debris before it breaks down... just a side note..
and how do you get rid of PO4 when the debris is eaten up by your sand critters? this is were the alarm bells go off in my head ( dont do DSB ) goes off in my head..
No sorry needed, I just know how quickly anyone (very much including myself) can take things on a far off tangent, especially with this topic.

Consumption and export!

If I can give you a quick history though, it may help explain the wide range of sandbed failures occuring now. About 5 years ago when I first read about them, it was literally spelled out in published articles (TFH, FAMA, one or more of those publications) that you could not overfeed your tank/sandbed. They were inaccurately put forth as an indestructible filter and the bandwagon took off with all varieties of poor husbandry (because the sandbed will make it all better!). Today we realize it needs to be maintained like any other system.

I'm not anti BB though, actually want to try it in the future, but the reality there is that they are a heck of a lot of work to maintain since there is no other mechanism to get rid of the waste other than siphoning it out as often as possible. As I stated previously, there is a reason why everyone happily jumped ship.
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