7 week mark - still not cycling

[crashball]

I've been patient up to this point, but i'm startin to chomp at the bit to get more fish in my tank. Here's the history:

7 weeks ago started up the 29 gallon tank - plastic plants, couple of hiding spots, gravel substrate. Only started with 4 fish - 1 Dalmation Molly, 1 Micky Mouse Platy, 1 Blue Gourami, and 1 Bala Shark. We lost the Gourami around 2 weeks, but the others are still going strong. The tank cam e with Tetra's SafeStart product for putting in the good bacteria, which was used at day one.

Testing the water every couple of days, the ammonia is between 1-2 ppm. Coupe of weeks ago i was concerned it was too high around 2, so i added Jungle Labs product to neutralize the ammonia - similar to ammo-loc. I noticed an immediate differnece in the fishes behavior - they seemed much mroe lively - literally withing seconds of adding it. The reading stayed the same, which i would expect if it is just detoxifying the ammonia, but that is the only time i have used the product thus far. I regularly use Jungle Labs product to remove Chlorine/Chloramine during water changes.

I started out doing 25% water changes and vacuuming the gravel once a week, but thought this could be part of my problem in cycling. So i am no longer vacuuming and only doing a 15% change every three days or so - this was as of 2 weeks ago.

Last week i picked up APIs StressZyme+ to introduce the good bacteria as well. Directions for new starts up is to add every 7 days, 3 times. After 2 doses, there's still no change. Ammonia is around 1-2ppm, 0 Nitrates, 0 Nitrites. PH is around 7.6 GH is close to 150.

Any help would be appriciated - I am starting to get some alage and would love to add some SAE or oto cats but i'm hesitant to add anything until i know this is cycled

 

[DragonFish71]

So first off, you need to get the ammonia down to .25 or under. Higher than .25 will affect the fish. So water changes using only a dechlor, no ammonia removing products, just dechlor. Most of us here use Prime, but Jungle Start Right is good too (and cheaper, can be found at Walmart). What you want is one that detoxifies chlorine, chloramine and like Prime, ammonia. Don't worry, it won't stall the cycle. Don't vacuum the gravel during this time, just skim over it so the bacteria can colonize. Don't worry that doing water changes will upset your cycle, very little of the beneficial bacteria live in the water column.

The problem is that you used the ammonia neutralizing tabs. Those will stall out a cycle. Honestly, any chemical except a good dechlor can do that. Stop using anything other than a dechlor, period. I use those bacteria suppliments to start a tank cycle (fishless) but would never under any circumstances suggest them to use during a cycle with fish. Those products don't tell the whole truth that you need to change the water on a constant basis so the fish don't suffer.

Is there any way you can re-home the fish so that they don't suffer anymore?

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/i-just-learned-about-cycling-but-i-already-have-fish-what-now-116287.html#post983258


[URL]http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articles/articles/23/1/Tips-and-tricks-for-your-fastest-fishless-cycle/Page1.html




[URL]http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articles/articles/24/1/Nitrogen-Cycle-/Page1.html
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[mommytron]

ok a couple things. first of all, that bala shark needs a much bigger tank. they get very large and needs LOTS of swimming space, about a 6 foot tank is recommended, especially since they need to be in schools to be happy.

second of all, when cycling with fish, you should really be doing DAILY water changes. when ammonia gets to levels above 0.5ppm it's highly toxic to fish, and will burn their gills. even if they survive the cycle, their lifespans will most likely be stunted. i would up your water change schedule to once daily in order to keep the ammonia level in check, this will prevent you from having to purchase all of those chemicals. and keep your fish healthier.

third, you should not be vacuuming your gravel. this could have played into the stall in your cycle. a lot of the good bacteria lives in the substrate (the most lives in your filter media, second the substrate, third the decorations, etc, then minimal if any live in the water column). so good that you are not vacuuming anymore, wait to vacuum until the cycle is complete.

you are definitely right in not wanting to add fish until you know your tank is cycled, that a very good move. until you are safe to add more fish, you can use a magnet cleaner or algae scraper to manually clean the algae (you can even use a razor blade).

are you changing out the filter media at all? i know that most cartridges call for replacement every few weeks, but this is simply a way of selling more filter cartridges. the truth is you don't want to change your media out ever if avoidable. the only time you want to change it is if it's falling apart. the reason for this is because most of your beneficial bacteria lives in the filter media. if it gets really clogged up or dirty, you can take it out during your PWC (partial water change) and swish it around, squeeze it out, or otherwise clean it off in the OLD tank water. make sure not to rinse it in tap water or you will risk killing off the bacteria.

a good way to speed up your cycle is to get some used filter media from an established tank. do you have friends or relatives with aquariums? you could ask for some of their old filter material or a handful of their substrate, or even a decoration or two, that you could place in your tank to introduce some more BB (beneficial bacteria). if you don't know anyone with a tank you could ask your LFS, most are willing to help out.

 

[crashball]

ok a couple things. first of all, that bala shark needs a much bigger tank. .

We found that out after we bought it. Saw a youtube video of a tank of balas and thought, "Hey, i'll get to buy a bigger tank next year" We picked them up at a local Meijer, it didn't even occur to me that they would be selling fish that get that big. Most of their stock is Mollies, Platies, and tetras

second of all, when cycling with fish, you should really be doing DAILY water changes

are you changing out the filter media at all? .

Not at all. I may be new to this, but i also got the feeling that the "recommended" schedule for replacement is like changing your oil every 3 months. Just a way to sell more. The filter is a Tetra model - Whisper i think.
I don't have anywhere else to put them. I'll up my water changes to daily. If that actually lowers the ammonia will it slow the cycle furthur or will it not make a difference?

 

[mommytron]

it will not make a difference in the rate of the cycle. but it will improve the health of your fish, which should be your first concern. the tank will cycle eventually, just keep the health of the fish as your priority and you will do just fine

 

[crashball]

Another thing i was wondering - How is it i could have this take for 7 weeks and show no Nitrites at all? I'm thinking of getting a liquid test kit instead of the stips i am using, i've heard they can be inaccurate. But are they so inaccurate that they wouldn't read at all?

 

[Coyote5]

if you used any ammonia remover or ammo-lock etc. that will stall it. I used a little bit at the very beginning, now 5 weeks in I have no cycle going at all.

 

[JustOneMore20]

Definitely get a liquid test kit. The strips can be inaccurate. They might be showing more ammonia than you really have...or less than you have.

 

[crashball]

Definitely get a liquid test kit. The strips can be inaccurate. They might be showing more ammonia than you really have...or less than you have.

My ammonia kit is a liquid one from API, the rest of the test were on a strip. I just went out and liquid test (Also API kit) for everything. Tested Nitrites and Nitrates, no readings at all. Ammonia around 1ppm. How can i not be getting any Nitrite readings after this long?

Also, everything i've read about ammo-loc (and mine by JungleLabs) is that it detoxifies the ammonia - still leaving it for the bacteria to consume but not harmful to the fish. Which is why after using it, it still reads on the ammonia test.

 

[crashball]

10 weeks - no cycle UPDATE

UPDATE - 3 weeks since my first post. I'm now at 10 weeks and still no cycle.

Last week I added a sponge filter to compliment my HOB Whisper filter to help colonize the nitrifying bacteria. I also picked up a bottle of Tetra SafeStart. The kit i bought came with a dose when i started, but thought maybe the bio load was too small since i only had 4 fish in a 30 gal. Since ammonia was staying pretty stable around 1ppm, i though i'd pick up another bottle and add a few more hardy fish.

So last weekend i added 2 opaline gouramis and the Safe Start. And a couple days after that, added a couple lyretail mollies. I still see about 1ppm on ammonia, 0 Nitrites and Nitrates. My PH has gone up somewhat from around 7.6 to 8.

I couldn't hold off vacuuming the gravel a bit since i've gone 6 weeks since stopping, the waste build up is starting to be pretty noticible and gross.

I know now that cycling with fish can take a while but i have never heard a tank taking this long.

A footnote, i lost one of the Gouramis yesterday. They had looked like they were doing well, i was surprised when we lost that one. I am also about to lose one of the Lyretail mollies - he's on the gravel barely breathing, but he's been hiding since i put him in and rarely see him eat. I think he was also getting chased by our Platy, but i'm not real surprised that he's either i'll or stressed.

 

[crashball]

Just had a though - Since i have a new sponge filter, any thoughts about picking up a 10 gallon tank to put it in and do a fishless cycle to seed some bacteria?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ph

If you want to save your fish you need to get your ph down to 6.8-7. The ammonia won't be toxic to you fish at the lower ph. Just be certain you make the change slowly so you don't shock the fish.

 

[taylorodw]

This is true, but I would STRONGLY recommend not to change the pH using chemicals unless you have a chemistry-based understanding of exactly what is happening when you add an acid to your tank and test the tank's buffering capacity... really unless you have a KH test kit and a bunch of research on pH, just do water changes to get the ammonia down the old fashioned way

 

[mommytron]

just do water changes to get the ammonia down the old fashioned way

+1 easiest and safest way to go

 

[limojica]

Crashball, I hope you are hanging in there. I am a newbie and started out losing all fish (4 at once) in a 29 gal. I listened to the petstore that told me to just add chemicals and leave the water alone. I started doing more research and discovered in the first stage "Ammonia" of the cycle, you need to do water changes to get the level down. The fish will die when ammonia is too high. Good bacteria doesn't get lost with water changes. You are actually helping the filter do its job by decreasing the ammonia in the tank. I did (20-25%)water changes everyday because I continued to overload my tank with too many fish. My filter had a hard time keeping up. On a liquid test, my ammonia reading was purple/blue over 4.0 (it was off the chart) and I was told by the salesperson he wouldn't sell me fish until my level came down. I then purchased another filter but I kept adding fish (mistake!) I went to another store for the fish. I stayed in the ammonia cycle for at least 5-6 weeks. Finally, I saw nitrites. Whoa! I was thrilled. I continued with the water changes on a schedule and only added declor (I just found Prime thankfully). The irony of this is I upgraded my 29 gal to a 55 gal and today, the 55 gal after only 2 weeks is cycled while the 29 gal is still stuck in the nitrites process. Why? I took my time with the 55 gal. I added 2 fish, no chemicals, and allowed it to work. It is a process and patience is needed. I discovered this the hard way. I am still working on the 29 gal. I have since removed the fish from the 29 gal and they're in the 55 gal. I have a few baby fish in the 29 gal now and I'm just going to monitor levels, change water when necessary and allow the process to work. This time without adding a ton of fish.

Good luck to you. I hope it works out! The advice here is good. I got lots of direction with the new tank (55 gal). I owe my success to all the great people here who care so much. It will happen eventually