A Whole Mess of New Tank Questions

[Didgeridoo]

Hello there! I'm very, very new to fishkeeping, and can use all the advice I can get, so I have a couple of questions that i would love to hear some feedback on. I tried asking the employees at my local fish store, but their answers left me a bit worried. When I asked them about fishless cycling, the employee told me not to do it because he didn't like it, and that I should just use a goldfish (even though I told him i was starting a tropical tank). To use his words, "Why look at an empty tank for a month? Goldfish are really dirty, so the cycle will finish really fast. It'll probably die, but you know, it's a goldfish." So I thought I'd take my questions to some people who actually liked fish.

First of all, let me give you the specs on my tank; it is a 20 gallon high tank, with an Aquaclear filter rated for 30 gallons. I have fine sand as a substrate, low lighting, and some anacharis and anubias plants. It is also in the middle of a fishless cycle! It can currently convert about 4 ppm of ammonia to .50 ppm in 12 hours. Nitrites are about 1 ppm, and nitrates are showing about 10 ppm.

Now for some questions! This is my current stocking plan for when it finishes cycling:

1 Dwarf Gourami
6 neon tetras OR cherry barbs (haven't decided yet)
6 panda cories

Does that look about right? Is it overstocked? Understocked? If overstocked, which fish would you recommend removing or reducing numbers on. If understocked, could I maybe add a few otos, or up the number of tetras/barbs?

Second question, I keep hearing about something called a 'Python' gravel cleaner. Should I get one? Those of you who have owned one, do you recommend it?

Thirdly, do I need to get an airstone/bubbler for my size tank, or is that uneccessary?

And last for now, when my tank is cycled and based on the list above, how many fish should i bring home each week and in what order to make sure the bateria can adjust to their bioload? I want to make sure my new fishy friends will be as comfortable as possible.

Sorry for the mega-post, but I'm really excited about my tank, and i want to do it right! Thanks for reading, and i would really appreciate any advice.

 

[Egress]

Is it overstocked? Understocked?

There are two factors you should consider when thinking about stocking levels. First is the workload you are willing to undertake to maintain this aquarium. With the fish mentioned above as adults, that aquarium might need one or two 5-10 gallon water changes per week. For someone that's only willing to change water once a month, this bioload might be considered overstocked. Another factor is aggression, but with that list it shouldn't be an issue.

something called a 'Python' gravel cleaner. Should I get one?

Many people rave about the Python. I don't use one because I agitate water before it goes into the aquarium, instead of straight from the tap. If you're able to go straight from the tap to the tank I'd recommend getting one. If you enjoy tinkering and saving a bit of coin you can make something similar (or better), there are a few guides in the DIY section.

do I need to get an airstone/bubbler for my size tank, or is that uneccessary?

If you have other means of gas exchange, air stones aren't required. If your filter output splashes a bit that should be enough. Battery powered air pumps can be nice to have if you experience power outages that last a few hours.

when my tank is cycled and based on the list above, how many fish should i bring home

One of the advantages of fishless cycling is that you could add them all at once. If it were me and if I were buying from multiple stores I would probably add them one group at a time, keeping them in a quarantine tank for a month before allowing them to have any contact with my other tanks.

 

[ElvisMinnow]

I am sorta new too, but here is what I have learned...

First, there are a number of products like the Python, which are pretty low tech, and work well. I cannot understand the advice given above to not clean the tank bottom. Everything falls down-and it accumulates. If you have a "clean" tank and not much seems to build up in a week, well thats great, vacuum next week. I have a lot of fish, and many plants, and there is always plant parts, crap, and mystery organics on the bottom, so I clean it up. By the time I am done I have taken enough water for a partial change. It works.

Next, I don't know why "cycling" wan't a problem for me, but it wan't. I never had an ammonia problem, and the tanks made nitrates easily. I was functional in a week. However, I did do the following:
1. I soaked all of my Aquaclear filter components (sponge, biomedia, carbon, thin pre-filter sheet) in concentrated bacteria supplement before setting up (and at every filter rinsing thereafter--once a week at the beginning).
2. I have plenty of plants, and I poured bacteria supplement liberally into the substrate (flourite/ecocomplete) when I set it up, and I poured it into the filter every day for two weeks when I set up.
3. I used several different bacteria supplements at once. Some use different bugs, and if you don't test to see if they are viable and numerous (who does?), that is a safe approach, I thinks. I used Seachem Stability, Hagen Cycle, API Stress Zyme, and the Tetra product that came with my tank. All at the same time.
4. The fish came in slowly, one or two at a time. It is not cruel, there is no build-up of toxics.

I got no cloudy water, no chemical spikes, just a smooth transition.
The dynamic seems to be: will fish produce more crap than can be converted by the limited amount of bugs in the tank? So, put more bugs in the tank. Bacteria grow fast, we just need to be sure we have the mix of desirable bugs in good quantities, and they will take it from there. I would rather starve bugs than kill fish.

I used spring water up until recently, and I have happened upon another thing which can work for new, and all tanks. If you use Seachem Prime to condition tap water, it takes out all of the chlorine compounds, but also knocks down the nitrogen compounds into a non-toxic form. They may still test as present but they will be non or less toxic. I use a tad more Prime than is specified in my water jugs--we are talking drops when you are at the volume of 2-3 gallons--and that gives you a buffer against any surprise chemical events in your aquaworld.

 

[TheNamelessPoet]

It'll probably die, but you know, it's a goldfish

yea... that would be the last time I went to that store

 

[fearlessfisch]

Here are some excerpts from previous threads about dwarf gouramis. I do not buy dwarf gouramis anymore.
So many of them die within a month or three, and the fish stores keep selling them despite knowledge of the widespread dwarf gourami disease. Please take a look at this article on imported fish and this terrible disease. If you do buy, I strongly suggest buying from a local breeder who can demonstrate to you that the stock is healthy over generations.

Aquarium trade may have spread gourami virus | Practical Fishkeeping magazine

Instead, consider the thick-lipped/non-dwarf variety of gouramis, which don't seem to be infected. I have a thick-lipped paradise who is just as pretty as the flame dwarfs, and healthy.

I also found this link very interesting:

DwfGDis

Excerpts from the conversation:

.... DGD is apparently caused by a virus, so antibiotics do not help. DGD is practically ubiquitous in shipments of Dwarf Gouramis from Southeast Asia. One scientific study found almost 1 in 4 Dwarf Gouramis were infected with it. It is also EXTREMELY contagious, and as soon as one fish dies, the disease WILL spread, so that the entire batch of fish will be infected. For this reason, I personally recommend people NEVER buy Dwarf Gouramis from anywhere other than a local breeder. Truly, it just isn't worth it. If you want to keep a small gourami, skip Dwarf Gouramis (and their hybrids and variants, such as neon, robin, and sunset gouramis). Instead go for Colisa labiosus and Colisa fasciata (Thick-lipped Gourami and Banded Gourami respectively). These fish are similar but not affected by the disease. Your female gourami is, more than likely, infected and so doomed unless you separate the fish immediately and are extremely lucky. But the other fishes (including the pearl gouramis) should be fine. There's no sign that DGD spreads to fishes other than Dwarf Gouramis. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news....


......

Dwarf gouramis -- Colisa lalia -- are indeed extremely prone to bacterial and viral diseases collectively known as "Dwarf Gourami Disease" (DGD). These are a problem because of how the fish are farmed. The odds on a standard, store-bought dwarf gourami getting DGD is better than 50% unless the fish is kept in soft, acidic water at slightly higher than average temperature (~5 degrees GH, pH 6.0-6.5, 25-28 degrees C). Even under these optimal conditions, there's no guarantees your fish won't come down with DGD. It's really as simple as this. Now, as for treatment -- there isn't any. None. Zilch. Nada. When a dwarf gourami is infected, particularly with the viral form, well, that's it. The best you can do is destroy the fish painlessly. There's no recovery, and antibiotics (naturally, this being a viral disease) have no effect whatsoever. Nor does adding salt to the tank, prayer, or sacrificing a cock at the altar of Asklepios. Commercially-bred dwarf gouramis are, in my opinion, a total waste of time and money. Far, FAR better to buy one of the similar but infinitely more robust species like Colisa labiosus or Colisa fasciata. These have the same basic colour but are about a third to a half as big as the Dwarf gourami....
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[Didgeridoo]

Wow, thank you for all the advice, everyone! It is all very, very helpful and i will take it into consideration while i wait for my tank to cycle.

Thank you for the warnings about Dwarf Gouramis, Fearless! I'd hate to get a sickly fish. I've also just recently heard this advice from a few other sources as well, and one of them suggested a Honey Gourami as a replacement. Do you think a Honey Gourami would be all right?

 

[motherspice]

Wow, thank you for all the advice, everyone! It is all very, very helpful and i will take it into consideration while i wait for my tank to cycle.

Thank you for the warnings about Dwarf Gouramis, Fearless! I'd hate to get a sickly fish. I've also just recently heard this advice from a few other sources as well, and one of them suggested a Honey Gourami as a replacement. Do you think a Honey Gourami would be all right?

Welcome and, I have a pearl gourami and she is wonderful pretty and healthy

 

[fearlessfisch]

You will need to be very careful with honeys to make sure what you are getting. Dwarf varieties are often sold with the name "honey gourami," even though they are a dwarf variant rather than the true honey.

I found this exchange (below), cautioning that the true honey is a very delicate fish and recommending other substitutes (e.g., thick-lipped gourami), instead. However, it is up to you. Just keep in mind that a huge number of "honeys" in the fish stores are actually mislabeled dwarfs, so you will need to research the differences and buy carefully.

I still think local breeders are the best option for gouramis. I still love the dwarfs and am actively searching for a good local breeder of healthy powder blues and flames.

GouramiSelFAQs

Re: dwarf gouramis? Now Honeys... Gourami sel.... what's next? – 08/26/07
wow. feel bad for those poor little dwarfs! what about honey gouramis? (i would like to stick with my 10 gallon) and also, what if the dwarf gouramis don't come from Asia? If i ask my LFS (awesome store, very friendly, fish look great!) if they come from Asia, they say no, the fish look good....? (i love dwarf gouramis!!!=)so funny!)
sorry for all my questions! I want to be a good fish ''mommy''!
<Greetings. If the Dwarf gouramis don't come from Southeast Asia, then there's less change that they suffer from Dwarf gourami disease. The ideal is if they're locally bred (they aren't difficult to breed, so your local fish club might be able to help you there). Tropical fish shops may be able to tell you where their stock comes from. Many order directly from exporters in Southeast Asia, South America, or wherever. But a lot of stores get stuff through "middlemen", importers, and so the store might not know precisely where their livestock comes from. If you *do* want to try dwarf gouramis, then you need to know the signs of Dwarf gourami disease. Fish suffering from this begin by being lethargic, off their food, and shy. As things get worse they develop ulcers and patches of white dead skin, often looking a lot like they have finrot. Then they die. If even one single fish shows these symptoms, then assume they're all infected. I personally wouldn't buy dwarf gouramis EVER except from a local breeder... but it's your money. Honey gouramis are resistant to the disease (as are most other gouramis) BUT they are intrinsically more delicate fish. They need soft/acid water, period. If you don't have that, they're likely to be short-lived. I honestly cannot recommend the alternatives too highly: Colisa labiosus and Colisa fasciata. These are easy fish that look like Dwarf gouramis but can be practically guaranteed to last for years. Being a bit bigger they're also less shy, and easier to tame. They're quite commonly traded, and not difficult to find. Please look them up in your aquarium book. Hope this helps, Neale>

 

[fearlessfisch]

Congratulations on the new tank. I think it's great that you are planning so carefully. You are picking all my favorite fish, so it sounds like it will be beautiful.

 

[Didgeridoo]

Thank you fearless! The only problem is all the information I'm finding about the other gouramis you suggested say that they get about 4'' as opposed to the dwarf gourami's 2''. Would that make my tank overstocked when the gourami is full grown?

It would be:

1 gourami (4'')
6 neon tetras
6 panda cories

In a 20 gallon tank. If that's overstocked, can anyone recommend a different centerpiece fish that doesn't get over 3''?