Advise on Fishless Cycling

[jlk]

I am not personally familiar with the Nutrafin tests but there is a huge difference between 6.5 and 7.5. I would be more likely to trust the two different API tests that put your ph in the 7.4-7.5 range. How does your tap water look?

 

[TyaxElite]

I am not personally familiar with the Nutrafin tests but there is a huge difference between 6.5 and 7.5. I would be more likely to trust the two different API tests that put your ph in the 7.4-7.5 range. How does your tap water look?

Tap water PH values look exactly same, is that a good or bad thing?

 

[jlk]

Thats perfectly fine! Not everyones tap changes after sitting out. You have nice, stable water to work with.

 

[TyaxElite]

Nitrites gave dropped over night Dosed up with ammonia again this morning will check the ammonia and nitrate drop down again with 24Hours and I guess I'm done? Is it worth a gravel vac before adding the fish or can this reduce the bacteria count? Large water change to drop down Nitrates and then add fish?

 

[jlk]

Nitrites gave dropped over night Dosed up with ammonia again this morning will check the ammonia and nitrate drop down again with 24Hours and I guess I'm done? Is it worth a gravel vac before adding the fish or can this reduce the bacteria count? Large water change to drop down Nitrates and then add fish?

Thats great! You will need to continue to dose amm for a few more days to be positive your amm & nitrite are steadily zeroing out. If they are, on the day you are ready for fish, skip the amm, do a big water change with temperature-matched properly conditioned water & adjust your temp if it was cranked up. You want to drop your nitrates down to your tap level- this may take more than one big water change. A gravel vac probably isnt necessary. You can run over the surface to pick up any debris if it seems really dirty. Check out U-tube for 'how-to' videos on 'drip acclimation' if you are not familiar with the process. Congrats!!!

 

[TyaxElite]

Thats great! You will need to continue to dose amm for a few more days to be positive your amm & nitrite are steadily zeroing out. If they are, on the day you are ready for fish, skip the amm, do a big water change with temperature-matched properly conditioned water & adjust your temp if it was cranked up. You want to drop your nitrates down to your tap level- this may take more than one big water change. A gravel vac probably isnt necessary. You can run over the surface to pick up any debris if it seems really dirty. Check out U-tube for 'how-to' videos on 'drip acclimation' if you are not familiar with the process. Congrats!!!

Thanks for the advice, I may have spoken too soon. I have dosed back up on ammonia and the nitrites have rocketed? I am under the impression when nitrite drops and ammonia is re-added it only increases slightly?
Dosed up to 2-3ppm on ammonia and this has dropped since this morning now 1ppm but nitrites are back up to 2-5ppm (hard to say which)

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks for the advice, I may have spoken too soon. I have dosed back up on ammonia and the nitrites have rocketed? I am under the impression when nitrite drops and ammonia is re-added it only increases slightly?
Dosed up to 2-3ppm on ammonia and this has dropped since this morning now 1ppm but nitrites are back up to 2-5ppm (hard to say which)

You might be checking too soon and catching the conversion. Best to wait to th 24 hour mark and then test and see what the numbers are. It's not impossible for nitrites to peak again, that's why we suggest continuing to dose and test for 3-5 days after both ammo and nitrite go to 0 to ensure they stay there.

 

[librarygirl]

Patience isn't my strong point but I won't cheat/rush as this will only hurt the fish, So making sure its done properly.

Im thinking so far:-

Definitely:-
2 x Corys @ 6.5cm x 2 = 13cm
6 x Harlequins @ 4cm = 24cm
1 x Bristlenose @ 12.5cm = 12.5cm
2 x German Blue Rams @ 5cm = 10cm
Total = 59.5cm

Still not sure:-
6 x Danios @ 6cm = 36cm
Endlers Guppy @ Male 2.5cm Female 4.5cm
Red Snakeskin Guppy @ 4cm
Neons
Shrimp

Reason Im not sure if the sizes, The fish I have decided on in length equal 59.5cm (although this is including fins) and I have been working on the rule 1cm of fish to 1L (excluding fins) is this a good rule to use?
I don't want to overstock (and I am new to all this so please pull me up if I am wrong on anything) the tank for the sake of wanting as many fish as possible, I would ideally like to add another group of shoaling fish but feel this will overstock the tank.

I also fancy adding shrimp but unsure what to go for? (or should I not?) and change these for the bristle nose?

That's about 20 gals so a good size. What kind of Corys? I would suggest the smaller ones like Pandas, Dwarf or Pygmy corys and they need a group of at least 4 to feel secure.

The BN Pleco will take up most of your space and they need live driftwood to munch on for digestion.

With guppies be careful if you get a male and female because they will most likely have a lot of babies and can quickly overstock your tank.

German Blue Rams are a type of Dwarf Cichlid and a pair when breeding can become very aggressive to your other fish. You might be able to get away with one in a 20 gal as a centerpiece. You might also look into a Dwarf Gourami as an alternative to a centerpiece fish as well. Gouramis may nip at the Guppies though because of the longish fins that the guppies have.

So you could do something like:
--4 Panda or 6 Dwarf or Pygmy cory
--6 harlequins
--2 guppies (both male or female)
--BN Pleco (needs driftwood)
--Shrimp

OR

--4 Panda or 6 Dwarf or Pygmy cory
--2 guppies (both male or female)
--6-8 harlequins
--1 Ram OR 1-2 Gourami (again Gouramis may be iffy with Guppies though, maybe those with experience with these will chime in)
--Shrimp

Edit: forgot to add that I'm not familiar with the filter you mentioned. Is it undergravel, internal, canister or HOB (hang on the back)? Do you know what size tank it's rated for? Ideally you want double the filtration for the size tank you have, so you'd want a filter(s) that can filter at least a 40 gal tank.

 

[TyaxElite]

You might be checking too soon and catching the conversion. Best to wait to th 24 hour mark and then test and see what the numbers are. It's not impossible for nitrites to peak again, that's why we suggest continuing to dose and test for 3-5 days after both ammo and nitrite go to 0 to ensure they stay there.

Ok checked again last night 10PM my time and was around 5ppm (Nitrite) tested again this morning 10AM and now reading 0.25? Should I continue to test another few days?
Am i right in thinking that even when fully cycled during the conversion processes they WILL show up? So for example with the ammonia coming from fish waste and then converted to nitrite (I tested here I would see Nitrite) the Nitrobacter then convert Nitrite to Nitrate?

 

[TyaxElite]

That's about 20 gals so a good size. What kind of Corys? I would suggest the smaller ones like Pandas, Dwarf or Pygmy corys and they need a group of at least 4 to feel secure.

The BN Pleco will take up most of your space and they need live driftwood to munch on for digestion.

With guppies be careful if you get a male and female because they will most likely have a lot of babies and can quickly overstock your tank.

German Blue Rams are a type of Dwarf Cichlid and a pair when breeding can become very aggressive to your other fish. You might be able to get away with one in a 20 gal as a centerpiece. You might also look into a Dwarf Gourami as an alternative to a centerpiece fish as well. Gouramis may nip at the Guppies though because of the longish fins that the guppies have.

So you could do something like:
--4 Panda or 6 Dwarf or Pygmy cory
--6 harlequins
--2 guppies (both male or female)
--BN Pleco (needs driftwood)
--Shrimp

OR

--4 Panda or 6 Dwarf or Pygmy cory
--2 guppies (both male or female)
--6-8 harlequins
--1 Ram OR 1-2 Gourami (again Gouramis may be iffy with Guppies though, maybe those with experience with these will chime in)
--Shrimp

Edit: forgot to add that I'm not familiar with the filter you mentioned. Is it undergravel, internal, canister or HOB (hang on the back)? Do you know what size tank it's rated for? Ideally you want double the filtration for the size tank you have, so you'd want a filter(s) that can filter at least a 40 gal tank.

I had been thinking Sterbai Corys? If I am honest I'm not overly keen on Guppies, The BN i have been looking was mainly as the algae eater in my tank.

Ive had a re-think and thought maybe?
6 x Harlequin Rasboras
1 x Bristlenose
2 x Cockatoo Cichlids?
2-3 x Corys (Or do i really need to get 4 for there welfare?)

And the eventually add some small shoal of Tetra?

 

[jlk]

Ok checked again last night 10PM my time and was around 5ppm (Nitrite) tested again this morning 10AM and now reading 0.25? Should I continue to test another few days?
Am i right in thinking that even when fully cycled during the conversion processes they WILL show up? So for example with the ammonia coming from fish waste and then converted to nitrite (I tested here I would see Nitrite) the Nitrobacter then convert Nitrite to Nitrate?

You need to wait a full 24hrs before retesting. Continue to dose ammonia & test until your tank is steadily converting amm & nitrite to zero for a couple of days. Once you are fully cycled & have fish, you should not see any amm or nitrite no matter when you test. Fish continously produce ammonia which is continously converted. This doesnt happen at the levels you are dosing your tank right now (one huge dose 1x a day) which are intended to be much higher than what a stocked tank will produce gradually.

 

[librarygirl]

I had been thinking Sterbai Corys? If I am honest I'm not overly keen on Guppies, The BN i have been looking was mainly as the algae eater in my tank.

Ive had a re-think and thought maybe?
6 x Harlequin Rasboras
1 x Bristlenose
2 x Cockatoo Cichlids?
2-3 x Corys (Or do i really need to get 4 for there welfare?)

And the eventually add some small shoal of Tetra?

I wouldn't do Sterbai in a 20. I have them and they are fairly large for Corys. Pandas are adorable (I have them too) and stay small so that would be a better option, particularly if you want to get a pleco too as they would all inhabit the bottom and there wouldn't be a lot of room for a BN and larger corys. And yes Corys need a group of at least 4 to be happy, although some even recommend 6+.

I wouldn't get two Cichlids. If you get a Male and Female they will breed and possibly hurt your other fish, particularly since it's a fairly small tank and they will claim a territory. Two males may fight. You might be able to get away with one as a centerpiece although for a 20 gal I'd recommend a Dwarf Gourami instead.

So you could do:
6 harlequin
1 BN pleco
4 small cory (panda or dwarf or pygmy)
1 dwarf gourami
and you might be able to squeeze 6 neon tetras in there. You'd be maxed out though. The plecos are messy and take up a lot of the room. If you kept out the BN you could up the schoools of harlequins to 8 and the neons to 6 (and 6 corys if you get dwarves or pygmys). If you just want the BN for algae you could get some snails instead; much smaller, less waste and less of a bioload and they'll keep things clean.

 

[TyaxElite]

You need to wait a full 24hrs before retesting. Continue to dose ammonia & test until your tank is steadily converting amm & nitrite to zero for a couple of days. Once you are fully cycled & have fish, you should not see any amm or nitrite no matter when you test. Fish continously produce ammonia which is continously converted. This doesnt happen at the levels you are dosing your tank right now (one huge dose 1x a day) which are intended to be much higher than what a stocked tank will produce gradually.

Thank you for your post, dosed back up on ammonia and nitrate has shot back up to 4ppm. PH has dropped though between 6.8-7.2 hard to say off the API test kit

 

[jlk]

This is common especially towards the end of a cycle when a ton of amm & nitrite is being processed. You really dont want it to drop much further (and it likely will) so when you have a chance, its time for a big water change with temp-matched, conditioned water to help re-establish your buffers to prevent a ph crash.

 

[TyaxElite]

This is common especially towards the end of a cycle when a ton of amm & nitrite is being processed. You really dont want it to drop much further (and it likely will) so when you have a chance, its time for a big water change with temp-matched, conditioned water to help re-establish your buffers to prevent a ph crash.

Thanks for the pointer I'll get a water change done asap, Do I just need to check afterward that the PH restore to its previously more stable figure?

 

[jlk]

You can check it if you want. A big wc should bring it back up into your normal tap range. What you will have to check is your amm level after the wc & add back enough to bring it back to 4ppm range. Just keep a close eye on your ph over the next few days because it may start to drop again with all the conversion happening. A few days of steady zeroes & you will be set for fish (after wc to drop your nitrates)!

 

[TyaxElite]

You can check it if you want. A big wc should bring it back up into your normal tap range. What you will have to check is your amm level after the wc & add back enough to bring it back to 4ppm range. Just keep a close eye on your ph over the next few days because it may start to drop again with all the conversion happening. A few days of steady zeroes & you will be set for fish (after wc to drop your nitrates)!

Thanks for all your help, Really looking forward to stocking the tank now.
I will soon donate to the site to say thanks to all who have posted and helped and also to say thanks for all the fantastic information available.
I saved buying these start-up/bacteria products so donation more than covers the donation

 

[TyaxElite]

I wouldn't do Sterbai in a 20. I have them and they are fairly large for Corys. Pandas are adorable (I have them too) and stay small so that would be a better option, particularly if you want to get a pleco too as they would all inhabit the bottom and there wouldn't be a lot of room for a BN and larger corys. And yes Corys need a group of at least 4 to be happy, although some even recommend 6+.

I wouldn't get two Cichlids. If you get a Male and Female they will breed and possibly hurt your other fish, particularly since it's a fairly small tank and they will claim a territory. Two males may fight. You might be able to get away with one as a centerpiece although for a 20 gal I'd recommend a Dwarf Gourami instead.

So you could do:
6 harlequin
1 BN pleco
4 small cory (panda or dwarf or pygmy)
1 dwarf gourami
and you might be able to squeeze 6 neon tetras in there. You'd be maxed out though. The plecos are messy and take up a lot of the room. If you kept out the BN you could up the schoools of harlequins to 8 and the neons to 6 (and 6 corys if you get dwarves or pygmys). If you just want the BN for algae you could get some snails instead; much smaller, less waste and less of a bioload and they'll keep things clean.

Thanks for your continued support librarygirl I'm thinking now drop the pleco and use the free'd up Bio-load on other fish!
Any recommendations on snails? (Or could this be shrimp?) I do currently have around 2-3 snails that must have come in with the live plants. I have also seen a snail egg sack today! (So more on the way)

So:-
6-8 x Harlequin Rasbora
4 x Corys although considering Shrimp!
1 x Dwarf Gourami
6 x Tetras (still to decide)

God this is the hardest bit!...

 

[TyaxElite]

This is common especially towards the end of a cycle when a ton of amm & nitrite is being processed. You really dont want it to drop much further (and it likely will) so when you have a chance, its time for a big water change with temp-matched, conditioned water to help re-establish your buffers to prevent a ph crash.

Water change done and PH was change to before, Also checked ammonia was 2ppm 2 hours after checked again this morning no nitrite again, So dosed up to 2ppm on ammonia and will check again this evening

 

[TyaxElite]

Ordered two Nerite Snails to cover the algae, I intend on doing the tank maintenance but a little help won't hurt! Means I can use the bio-load for other stock!
Nitrite 0 will continue to test once more (maybe two to be sure) and then stock up?