BioSpira in fishless tank showing nitrites - what to do ?

[joannde]

The ongoing saga of my attempt to cycle my 29gal tank.

My nitrites were at 8ppm so I did a couple of PWCs to lower the level. I messed up ! On the last water change I forgot to add a chlorine / chloramine neutralizer before turning the filter back on - I realized my error about 5 minutes later but by that time I'm sure I killed off most (if not all) of my biofilter. Since I still had 2 oz of Bio-Spira left I added it in and planned on adding fish at the same time. Before doing so I tested the water.
Ammonia 1.0ppm
Nitrites 0.25ppm
Because of the levels I decided to wait a bit before adding fish

Tested today
Ammonia 0.0ppm (yippie - somethings working !)
Nitrites 1.0ppm
I added a few fish flakes as an ammonia source while I figure out what to do next.

My stocking plan was primarily platies.

Questions:
1. is the nitrite level fatal to platies?
2. should I add 3 or 6 fish to start establishing the bio-load ?

Thanks !

 

[SCFatz]

One ppm is not awful....but its not good either...fatal no.

The answer to question number two lies in the unreported result imo...what are the nitrates?If your nitritites are converting...then I would say so.If the trates are at 0 then the window is open for a large nitrite spike and I would say no.

Test for nitrates and let us know.

EDIT...I've never used biospira so if I'm way off base someone chime in...I'm just using good old cycle logic (or my understanging of it ).

 

[joannde]

Nitrates 5ppm - which is the same as my tap water. I'm not cycled but with BioSpira you're supposed to add the fish at the same time. I added the BioSpira yesterday when nitrites were .5 and ammonia was at 1ppm (I had a done a water change before and apparently stirred up enough of the decomposed shrimp I was previously using an an ammonia souce to give me that temporary spike. I didn't want to add the fish until ammonia came down as my pH is at 8.2 (its my water) and I know that at that pH that ammonia is more toxic then the same levels in neutral or acidic water. Today the NH3 is back to 0. According to the package it is "normal" to have ammonia / nitrites up to 2ppm while the cycle establishes.

Thanks for the answer on the nitrites. I know anything above 0 is not good, but I'm hoping the B-S should get the cycle finished within a few more days so those nitrites should go back down soon (at least in BioSpira theory !!!).

Since the nitrite level is not fatal and the fish will be small I'll go for the 6 to get the bioload up so that I don't kill off the BioSpira bacteria. But I'll wait awhile and see if anyone else can shed some wisdom

I just read somewhere that nitrites of 5ppm is a "warning" and 10ppm is "dangerous". Is that accurate ???? seems awfully high to me.

Thanks again !

 

[rich311k]

Over 1 is bad in my opinion. You are supposed to add the fish at the same times as the bio-spira. Since the ammonia part worked I think it safe to say you have a good batch. Though if you are seeing no nitrate you have no nitrite eating bacteria established yet. You could either keep adding fish food and wait for the nitrates to start showing or you can add the fish and keep an eye on the levels and be prepared to do water changes. The instructions say to add your bioload right away. If it werer my tank I would add the fish because its seems to me the bio-spira is working.

 

[joannde]

Thanks ! I'll add 6 platies today and then add 2 - 3 fish per week over the next couple of weeks to give the slow reproducing nitrite eating bateria a chance to catch up. Make sense ?

 

[rich311k]

I would not add anymore fish after the platies until the nitrite go to and stay at zero. Just make sure to do a water change if the nitrite number climbs any more, once the fish are in the tank. Be sure to get 3 females for every male and do you have any plans for the children.

 

[joannde]

Sorry, yes - I meant to imply that I would wait for nitrites to hit zero first. 3 females PER male ? (lucky guys !) - I hadn't seen advice about that ratio before. You're right, there are going to be LOTS of children at that ratio ! My intent was to add a carnivore (a Betta actually) to the tank - he wouldn't eat himself to death, would he ???

 

[rich311k]

The males can be relentless, gives all the gals a break. I have never had a betta in with live bearer fry, but I am sure he will eat as many as he can catch.

 

[malkore]

THis is a good example of Bio Spira failing to live up to its claims. Usually it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Be prepared to do daily water changes if you add fish. I would not let nitrite exceed 1ppm. Nitrite blocks oxygen absorption in the bloodstream, so they could asphyxiate. Especially if they are already stressed or get spooked.

 

[joannde]

I'm not ready to conclude that its failing. I was cycling the tank using a fishless cycling method (started with ammonia changed to 2 shrimp once I got the nitrite spike). My nitrites got up to 8ppm and it was suggested that I do a PWC to get that done so the cycle would complete. While doing the water change I forgot the water treatment to neutralize the chloramines that are used in my tap water. Turned the filter on and a few minutes later realized my mistake - but it was probably too late and I probably killed all my good bacteria. After the water change NH3 = 1.0ppm, NO2 = 1.0ppm.

So I bought Bio-Spira to spare me another 4 weeks staring at the empty tank (in some ways I think the forgetting of the water treatment was freudian - I've been making myself CRAZY waiting for the cycle to end).

The BioSpira was added yesterday and I'm already processing ammonia. Give that its been less than 24 hrs and that the NH3 measured at 1ppm at its highest and NO2 is now 1ppm I think its a little too early to find measureable amts of NO3 but I'll keep you posted !

I'll test for NO3 tomorrow and see if I can get a reading.

 

[malkore]

FYI, a couple mins of chlorinated water won't kill all your beneficial bacteria.

I know a few people who have always rinsed their filter media in plain tap water, and never had issues. I don't exactly recommend that, but I would say it's not instant death.

Good luck!

 

[Menagerie]

Sorry, yes - I meant to imply that I would wait for nitrites to hit zero first. 3 females PER male ? (lucky guys !) - I hadn't seen advice about that ratio before. You're right, there are going to be LOTS of children at that ratio ! My intent was to add a carnivore (a Betta actually) to the tank - he wouldn't eat himself to death, would he ???

I don't think the betta is going to keep up with the potential amount of fry; furthermore, it would be unhealthy if it did.

aquariumhobbyist[/url]]If one were to observe the feeding habits of the betta in his natural habitat, they would notice that he eats a large variety of small insects that land on the water surface. This makes the betta splendens a carnivore, so when feeding your betta it is wise to give them a variety of different foods. A staple food such as betta bites, betta bio-gold, or betta min should be fed on a daily basis once or twice a day and only 5 or 6 pellets at a time. However, some bettas love variety, and can be fed freeze dried or frozen bloodworms, baby brine shrimp, or live foods such as mosquito larvae 2 or 3 times a week.

AA Betta article[/url]]Bettas are carnivorous, which mean they eat meat. Their favorits include bloodworms, blackworms, mosiquito larva, ect.

There's a big size difference between mosquito larvae and fry.
The answer to "he wouldn't eat himself to death, would he ?" is yes. Bettas are prone to blockage and bloating which will occur if allowed to feast on fry.

 

[joannde]

Ok - thanks !

Tonight I got 6 neon tetras and three dwarf sunrise platies (total lenght of all nine fish is probably 5 inches ! - at least for now !). So far everyone seems to be doing fine. I acclimated for a little over an hour, floating the bag and adding small amts of tank water every 5 minutes or so during that period, finally dumping all the water into a bucket while catching the fish in a net before releasing them into the tank.

I was thinking of getting another three dwarf sunrise platies next to have a group of 6 but if that leads to overpopulation and a blocked betta then I'll rethink my plan. I did ask about the mix awhile ago and got a green light - rich was the first one to ask about plans for the fry, which I hadn't even really thought about - I'm SUCH a doobie newbie ! Guess I'll be rethinking my plan !

I do really like giant danios but was told that they like to be in groups of 6, which would just about overstock my tank on their own, and that they are too active for a betta to live with. :::: sigh :::::

I did see dwarf neon rainbowfish at the LFS tonight so that might be another option and since they're easier to identify as male/female (red dorsal vs yellow dorsal) I may be able to get all one sex so that they don't reproduce also and complicate the issue.

I also would like to add 3 cory cats once the tank is fully stabilized. Would they find fry a tasty snack also ?

Malkore - thanks for the note on the chorinated water - guess I've been reading too much !!! I saw a post somewhere (don't even remember if it was this forum or a website) where someone was told they'd have to start from scratch after forgetting to condition the water for a few minutes .... guess I just got scared into thinking I had killed all of mine also. I'll take ANY survivors ! I really hate the thought of any of the fish getting poisoned from ammonia or nitrites. I did read one of TomK's posts about "low bioload cycling" so I'll just go slow - at least the tank isn't completely empty anymore - I should be able to be a little more patient now (I hope !!!).

Thanks again - as you can see, I need all the help I can get !

 

[An t-iasg]

You're doing fine

If you add a betta to this tank, I will agree with Menagerie - the betta will probably eat too many platy fry than is good for him. Look at the second box she quoted for you - the betta should have a staple food every day, and should not be fed the live, frozen or freeze-dried foods more than 2-3 times a week. This is exactly how I feed my bettas. I also feed bettas some pea pieces once a week to help guard against bloat and constipation. (Boil peas - frozen are easier to handle than canned - cool and peel the skin off. Feed the "meat" of the pea.) The betta will accept the pea more readily if you cut it up in small pieces that are the same size as his regular food. That is a bit tedious to cut up a little pea, but what we do for our fish, lol!

I also "fast" my bettas - skip a day of feeding - one day a week, usually the day after I feed the peas. This helps give the digestive system a rest, and also mimics natural conditions, since fish most likely do not eat in the wild every day.

About betta tankmates - the danios are going to be much too active for a slow-moving betta. Tetras are also questionable with a betta. I have seen a group of neon tetras "gang up" and nip a betta at a lfs. (I informed the owner and the betta was moved out of that tank.) A 29 gallon tank that is not overstocked may give the tetras enough territory that they are not bothering the betta. Just watch very closely; sometimes bettas work out nicely in a community tank and sometimes they don't. It depends on the personality of the betta as well as what tankmates are with him. If you do try, the best thing to do is to have a backup plan for the betta, such as his own 5-gallon tank that he can be moved into if necessary.

 

[cappieBridget]

Your tank sounds great! I love platies myself and am caring for about 25-30 platy fry with more coming, but it seems like it's going to be a never ending reproduction cycle now, lol. Good luck!!

 

[joannde]

And thanks again ! I do plan on getting a 5 gal as a backup. I won't be adding the Betta until I know the tank is fully cycled, so I'll be able to seed the 5 gal and worry less about cycling time there (but of course I'll check the water parameters often and do PWCs as needed). If the Betta works in the 29 gal then I'll use the 5 gal to raise the fry.

Good news - the BioSpira is DEFINITELY working One of the neons didn't make it through the night and I was concerned about an ammonia spike. The neon was apparently weak from the start - the other 5 neons found each other within 10 minutes, this little guy was hanging all by himself. Current parameters - NH3 = 0.0ppm and NO2 =0.5ppm.

Everyone is eating right now - I gave them a few teeny floating pellets and they're all having fun chasing them throughout the tank. I did overfeed a little - didn't realize how many of those pellets stuck to my finger !

I'm going to start a new thread to gather additional ideas for tahnkmates - I'm starting to run out of ideas LOL

 

[europas_ice]

Just FYI, my biospira seemed to do the same thing, taking care of all the ammonia but not converting nitrite to nitrate.

 

[joannde]

My nitrites are DEFINITELY being converted - the first 24 hrs I saw no change in nitrites but its now been 48 hrs and the nitrites fell from 1ppm to 0.5ppm. I'd say BioSpira works.

 

[rich311k]

Glad to hear it is going well. just keep testing and enjoy your tank.

 

[noncentric]

Just FYI, my biospira seemed to do the same thing, taking care of all the ammonia but not converting nitrite to nitrate.

The nitrite -> nitrate bacteria reproduce more slowly than the ammonia -> nitrite bacteria, so that part of the cycle would likely take longer. If it wasn't converting at all, then that wouldn't be so great - but it should be doing something.