Changing filters?

[Videonut85]

So I'm working on my first tank here, and I'm doing a fishless cycle. Nitrites just started showing up yesterday (HOORAY!) and I've got a stocking plan in order. I've been reading posts around the forum and something sparked a question for me.

I have an Aqueon Quiet Flow 20 Filter for my 29G tank. It came with one of those flossy filters with carbon in it. I read something that carbon isn't useful for regular use, but only if you're trying to clear up a problem. I already bought a 6 pack of replacements (online, not at a retail store. I choked when I saw the price in store.) I'm sure I could return them if they're totally worthless as they're not opened. Should I be using these filters? Is there a different type of material or filter I should be using?

I know the first recommendation is going to be to get a new filter, but the wife and I agreed to not get one until we get the tank up and running with some fish before spending more money on the aquarium.

 

[carey]

Hi there.

If you feel it necessary you can slit open the cartridge and remove the carbon. If it were me I'd just use the media until it falls apart then use a replacement with the carbon since you have them already.

When you do your tank maintenance and cleaning you dont want to throw out your filter cartridge til its literally falling apart. All the good bacteria live on it. Just rinse the cartridge with some used tank water during a water change.

Welcome to the hobby!

+1 for fishless cycling by the way.

 

[Viper]

What is the GPH (Gallons per Hour) rating for that filter? You are correct in saying that carbon is not necessary. You can get some more filter floss that doesn't have carbon in it. The job of the floss is to basically "polish" the water. After the floss you should have some form of media that acts as a "landing site" for the nitrifying bacteria. These are typically ceramic cylinders or bio-balls.

You will only need to get a new filter if the one you have doesn't create enough turnover for your tanks needs. At least 6x turnover is recommended. By turnover I mean the amount of water that can be filtered in an hour. So for your tank, 29 gallons multiplied by 6 = 174. So you should look for a filter that has a GPH rating of at least 174.

If you do in fact change the actual filter, Take out the media inside of it and put that media into the new filter that you put on the tank. If you mean just the filter media being changed, you will likely have to go through another cycle once the new media is added. This is because the largest portion of your beneficial bacteria live on the media inside of the filter.

 

[Vircomore]

Yea, it is unfortunate that Aqueon makes some great mid-size aquarium kits with all the fixin's - but can't be bothered to make their filters any better. My 26 gallon bowfront was an Aqueon kit and I ended up replacing the filter ASAP.

The biggest problem with Aqueon is that they use a cartridge system, but they don't supplement it with much else in the way of biomedia. So when the cartridge gets clogged to the point of overflowing (and Aqueon cartridges clog FAST) then you have no Bio-wheel or bio-media to compensate for having to throw away the cartridge.

 

[Videonut85]

What is the GPH (Gallons per Hour) rating for that filter? You are correct in saying that carbon is not necessary. You can get some more filter floss that doesn't have carbon in it. The job of the floss is to basically "polish" the water. After the floss you should have some form of media that acts as a "landing site" for the nitrifying bacteria. These are typically ceramic cylinders or bio-balls.

You will only need to get a new filter if the one you have doesn't create enough turnover for your tanks needs. At least 6x turnover is recommended. By turnover I mean the amount of water that can be filtered in an hour. So for your tank, 29 gallons multiplied by 6 = 174. So you should look for a filter that has a GPH rating of at least 174.

If you do in fact change the actual filter, Take out the media inside of it and put that media into the new filter that you put on the tank. If you mean just the filter media being changed, you will likely have to go through another cycle once the new media is added. This is because the largest portion of your beneficial bacteria live on the media inside of the filter.

Yes, I meant media, not the filter. The filter is rated at 125 GPH.

With this ceramic cylinder, or bio ball... are they something that you typically put inside the filter? Is there a specific brand or product you can recommend?

And Carey, is it necessary to rinse the filter during a water change? If you're rinsing it with used tank water, are you truly rinsing it seeing as how there is water constantly flowing through it?

 

[Videonut85]

Yea, it is unfortunate that Aqueon makes some great mid-size aquarium kits with all the fixin's - but can't be bothered to make their filters any better. My 26 gallon bowfront was an Aqueon kit and I ended up replacing the filter ASAP.

The biggest problem with Aqueon is that they use a cartridge system, but they don't supplement it with much else in the way of biomedia. So when the cartridge gets clogged to the point of overflowing (and Aqueon cartridges clog FAST) then you have no Bio-wheel or bio-media to compensate for having to throw away the cartridge.

From what I'm understanding, the substrate acts as a harbor for the bacteria also, so if I only suck out half of the gravel during a PWC, the other half of the gravel will still contain bacteria. So even if I have to replace the media, I could just vac a little less of the gravel to compensate, no?

What are some of the better brands of filters out there? I understand bio-wheels are best?

 

[Viper]

With this ceramic cylinder, or bio ball... are they something that you typically put inside the filter? Is there a specific brand or product you can recommend?

And Carey, is it necessary to rinse the filter during a water change? If you're rinsing it with used tank water, are you truly rinsing it seeing as how there is water constantly flowing through it?

Yes, the ceramic cylinders or bio-balls are placed in the filter AFTER the floss in the filtration process. This helps prevent any unwanted debris or detritus from getting stuck in the the media. The floss is referred to as the mechanical filtration since it involved physically removing debris from the water. The ceramic cylinders or bio-balls offer a lot of surface area for the nitrifying bacteria to colonize where they will feed off of ammonia and nitrites in the water column. This is referred to as biological filtration. The carbon is really only necessary if your water is cloudy or you are trying to get rid of any chemicals that you placed in the tank as particles of dust or chemicals will bond to the carbon pieces. This is why it is necessary after a while to replace the carbon because it eventually reaches its capacity for having "stuff" bond to it and can't handle anymore. This process is referred to as chemical filtration and is not necessary and is generally not desired by aquarists who maintain plants as the carbon tends to remove any minerals or fertilizers that are needed by the plants.

It is not necessary to rinse the actual filter itself during a water change. You can however rinse the media during a water change. Drain some of the existing tank water into a bucket and take the filter media and swish it around in the bucket. You don't want to use straight tap water as that will kill a lot of the beneficial bacteria. Then just place the media back into the filter. You don't want to have the media completely clean as a lot of that "gunk" is actually the bacterial colonies. The only reason you should feel the need to clean the media is if the water flow from the filter is being impeded in some way.

 

[Viper]

From what I'm understanding, the substrate acts as a harbor for the bacteria also, so if I only suck out half of the gravel during a PWC, the other half of the gravel will still contain bacteria. So even if I have to replace the media, I could just vac a little less of the gravel to compensate, no?

What are some of the better brands of filters out there? I understand bio-wheels are best?

A large percentage of the bacteria live in the filter since the bacteria require a lot of oxygen as well as water to thrive. Since the filter is exposed to open air, there is naturally a lot of oxygen readily available for the bacteria. I hope you don't mean actually taking out the gravel during a water change. But yes, a lot of aquarists will clean half of the gravel during a water change and then the other half during the next water change. If you replace the media, you will still go through a new cycle since as I said before, the majority of the beneficial bacteria live in the filter. It may not be a full blown cycle, but it will be a cycle of some sort.

I've had mixed results with bio-wheels. Personally, I don't feel they are necessary and this is further backed up by the AquaClear brand of filters. They are generally considered top of the line HOB (Hang on Back) filters and they don't use bio-wheels. In fact I use an AquaClear 70 in my tank and love it.

 

[Videonut85]

Ok, thanks for all the info!

 

[eco23]

Just one more thing to add... Carbon absorbs and removes ammonia which obviously interferes with your ammonia level during a fishless cycle. I realized this halfway through and cut out the carbon and put the actual pad back in. Luckily, the bacteria doesn't grow on the actual carbon so I wasn't losing any. I guess it's just a money making tactic selling these cartridges since you're supposed to replace something every month, when in reality you can cause a mini-cycle by following their instructions!

 

[Videonut85]

Just one more thing to add... Carbon absorbs and removes ammonia which obviously interferes with your ammonia level during a fishless cycle. I realized this halfway through and cut out the carbon and put the actual pad back in. Luckily, the bacteria doesn't grow on the actual carbon so I wasn't losing any. I guess it's just a money making tactic selling these cartridges since you're supposed to replace something every month, when in reality you can cause a mini-cycle by following their instructions!

So if I've already started forming nitrites in my tank, do you think I should still remove the carbon?

 

[Viper]

Just one more thing to add... Carbon absorbs and removes ammonia which obviously interferes with your ammonia level during a fishless cycle. I realized this halfway through and cut out the carbon and put the actual pad back in. Luckily, the bacteria doesn't grow on the actual carbon so I wasn't losing any. I guess it's just a money making tactic selling these cartridges since you're supposed to replace something every month, when in reality you can cause a mini-cycle by following their instructions!

I do not believe that carbon absorbs ammonia. Carbon is part of the chemical filtration process whereas ammonia removal is part of the biological filtration process.

If carbon did remove ammonia/nitrites/nitrates, what would be the point of waiting for the tank to cycle?

 

[Viper]

So if I've already started forming nitrites in my tank, do you think I should still remove the carbon?

It isn't necessary to remove the carbon

 

[eco23]

Carbon absolutely removes ammonia. I run a water purification company and we use activated coconut shell carbon to remove chloramines which is a chlorine/ammonia mixture the county uses.

 

[eco23]

When I started my fishless cycle it was taking me 200+ drops of pure ammonia to dose my tank up to 4ppm. I'd dose a little, test in an hour, dose some more, etc... When I learned that I shouldn't have had carbon in there (I thought it was necessary for all tanks since every filter comes with it) I took it out and it only took me about 50 drops in my 48 gallon to get up to 4ppm. What was happening was that over the hour when I was waiting for the water to circulate, my double carbon cartridge was absorbing the ammonia.

 

[Viper]

The activated carbon used in fish tanks is more likely than not going to be different than the carbon and any other material used in water purification for human consumption. Carbon is not at all necessary for aquariums and most experienced aquarists only use it occasionally if at all. The companies that manufacture the filters include the carbon because it does provide some benefits to the aquarium, but the cons of it make it not worth it in the long run. It needs to be replaced pretty regularly because it loses its bonding capabilities. If something needs to be replaced regularly, it is good business practice to include it in your products because it gets the unknowing aquarist (like yourself. not trying to offend either) to keep buying new carbon packs for the lifetime of the filter. It just makes sense on their part.

Here is a pretty detailed article on the activated carbon used in aquariums. Not one mention of ammonia removal.

Activated Carbon in the Aquarium - Algone.com

Also, if as you say, carbon removes ammonia and chloramines, why does everyone of us need to wait weeks for a tank to cycle and why do we need to add a de-chlorinator when adding new water to the tank?

 

[eco23]

Viper, I'm not going to argue with you. I agree that carbon serves no purpose in an aquarium other than to remove meds or take out odor, etc... However, it does have adsorption (not absorption) properties. In case you didn't know, things like Prime do not REMOVE chlorine/chloramines/ammonia... they DETOXIFY them. Do you have something like a Brita filter on your kitchen sink? Why do you think they take out the chlorine smell? Because it adsorbs the chlorine/ chloramine particles in the water. As long as you're not in a tiny, small town, you're city has switched to chloramines (as I said, a chlorine / ammonia mixture) because it does not evaporate out of water which helps it be more effective in treating drinking water.

 

[eco23]

As to your last part, a carbon filter is not going to remove every trace of chlorine instantly in a aquarium that has a large body of water.

 

[eco23]

I never made any statement that a tank wouldn't need to cycle due to carbon filters, I simply stated that it can impede your cycle due to the fact that there is an item in the tank that is competing for it's food source... the ammonia.

 

[Viper]

The carbon that you have in your tank might contain little black and white rocks. The white rocks are zeolite which in fact DOES absorb ammonia. This may be where you are getting that ammonia absorption that you are referring to.

I also saw in another thread that you mentioned that you seeded your tank with media from an already established tank. Could this possibly be where your carbon came from? If in fact the carbon that you put in the cycling tank came from an already established tank, it will have bacterial colonies built up on it. This would explain why it took you so many drops to reach the desired ppm reading. Basically the bacteria was doing its job. Then once you removed it, you removed this bacteria source which allowed the ammonia to reach the desired ppm faster. This is just speculation.