Classroom Teacher with class pets....

[kath32982]

I am a teacher of 5/6 graders and my students have earned class pets. I got a 10 gallon aquarium, with a filter, and decorations for the classroom. At the pet store (well known chain store) they recommended 2 dwarf frogs and 3 mollies.

I had the aquarium set up ahead of time (about 2 days), before adding the fish/frogs. I feed them twice a day, once in the morning (when I arrive around 730 am) and once before I go home (between 4-5 pm).

The fish/frogs have been in their tank for about a week at this point. The water has started to cloud up and the frogs don't often seem interested in their food. For food: I have flake food, freeze-dried shrimp pellets, and blood worms. I alternate the flakes and pellets, but always give blood worms.

In the past, I have had dwarf frogs and they eat the blood worms with great exuberance. They cant get enough of them.

Any tips for the cloudy water or the lack of eating on the frogs behalf would be greatly appreciated. Also, was the pet store correct that Mollies are good tankmates for the frogs? The frogs are the main interest for the students.

My students and I thank you for your help!

 

[ShadoeFox]

First, do a major water change asap. 50% or more.

What's happened is your tank wasn't "cycled" meaning it didn't have a biological filter ( bacteria) in place before adding fish. (i think you said it was only ruining two days before fish were added) this means waste is building up.

You might be hesitant to buy testing supplies, though I'd suggest getting the api master kit. If you can't afford it on a class budget, I would advise daily water changes.

The good news is t the cloud is likely bacteria in the water.its not what what you want exactly but its a good sign

 

[librarygirl]

Wow, lots of problems unfortunately.

First, and most importantly, the tank isn't cycled. Cycling means growing the beneficial bacteria to consume the ammonia (through waste) your fish (& frogs) put out. Unfortunately it takes time to grow the bacteria. Until then you'll need to do daily water changes to keep the toxins down. I also highly advise a liquid test kit, such as the API Master kit, to test the water for ammonia, etc. Without a test kit I'd do 50% water changes twice daily with a good dechlorinator. There's a link in my signature called: "new tank with fish;" this will explain the process and what you need to do. Another link is "what is cycling" which will explain in-depth what cycling is and why it's needed (ideally before adding any living thing to the tank). WIth the frogs already showing symptoms I"d say ammonia poisoning is setting in. A 70% water change ASAP would be a great start.

Secondly, Mollys are too large for a 10 gal (they have a high bioload and will put out too much ammonia for a tank that small). Also ADFs shouldn't be kept with fish ideally due to different temperature requirements and that the ADFs are nearly blind and should be target fed.

I'd return the Mollys right away; they are messy fish and given they are in an uncycled tank that is too small for them with frogs, I would return them if you can.. You could keep the ADFs in the 10 gal comfortably, you could even get a couple more. The tank is still cycling though so the daily water changes will be important for the next 3-8 weeks (I wouldn't add more frogs until the tank is fully cycled though). Also the best food for frogs is H&H Frog and Tadpole bites, supplemented once in a while with frozen meaty foods like the bloodworms (freeze-dried foods dont have much nutritional value and can be difficult on their digestion).

Good luck.

 

[ShadoeFox]

I admit I wasn't sure of the stock list. Saddly the well known chains don't train their people usually, so the person, while likely getting to help, just didn't know.

 

[kath32982]

I can't return the Mollies. I no longer have the receipt. I also do not have another tank that they could be moved to, so I need to find a solution that would work on a school budget.

The guy at the pet store had me use Freshwater Biozyme once a day in the water for the first week (which would end tomorrow) just a small pinch. He told me that would take care of the bacteria issue.

The frogs are very active, and one is actually shedding this morning, identifying to me that they are growing and healthy. I just havent seen them attack the blood worms like my previous frogs have done. I will add in, my previous frogs were full grown dwarf frogs. The dwarf frogs in my current tank are about the size of two tic-tacs placed next to each other, so they are very small.

 

[librarygirl]

Bacteria in a bottle products are unreliable at best. Bacteria need certain conditions to stay viable and once they are in a bottle, shipped from here to there in different temperatures, etc., it can be hit or miss whether they survive. I wouldn't blindly trust a product without at least testing the water with a test kit.

If you need to keep the frogs and the fish in the 10 gal, daily water changes of 50% twice a day with a dechlorinator (not bacteria stuff, a water dechlorinator like Prime) are going to be very important. Do you know what kind of Mollys they are? There are different types; some can get HUGE and will quickly outgrow that tank. I'd also stress the importance of a liquid test kit. You're going to need to know what's going on in the water (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) levels. Strips are cheaper up-front but they don't last long and are highly inaccurate so a liquid test kit is best.

I'm sorry to say, but aquariums are neither cheap nor easy to maintain. A bit of research before purchasing would have been best. A more proper pet for the students on a school budget may be something like a gerbil or hamster. If you aren't able to get what is necessary to properly cycle the tank and care for the fish/ADFs, I'd try to find proper homes for them. I'm sorry you weren't advised at the store, but the stores don't advise customers on things like cycling or proper tank size, unfortunately.

 

[ShadoeFox]

Okay folks, I'm going to have to ask people to leave off on lecturing, and either aim at helping and suggestions.

A new tank might be feasible. Checking cl and even posting a wtb might get one donated.

 

[ShadoeFox]

Sorry for broken posting. Using my phone.

Anyhow, if the master kit is to expensive, strips are better than nothing. Also, short term the mollies aren't going to bust the tank. You are going to have to do a lot of water changes, but thats how it is.

As I said, check craigslist, or post on cl that you find yourself looking for a cheap tank for a classroom. Frankly if I knew where you were and was close, I would. I am a jerk, so if I would,.someone would. And lord knows we all have spare gear laying about


And for the record, gerbils aren't all that easier, our cheaper.

 

[giants1249er]

Maybe you can get some media from the lfs to help the cycling process.

 

[ShadoeFox]

Maybe you can get some media from the lfs to help the cycling process.

Also not a bad idea, though I'd suggest NOT a big box. Find a little mom and pop LFS. Frankly, I don't trust the big boxes anymore. Thus my love of my QT tank...heh.

 

[kath32982]

Gerbils and Hamsters also are not allowed in classrooms anymore due to allergens. We are limited to aquatic animals.

 

[Wy Renegade]

I'm sorry to say, but aquariums are neither cheap nor easy to maintain. A bit of research before purchasing would have been best. A more proper pet for the students on a school budget may be something like a gerbil or hamster.

Wow, as a fellow classroom teacher, I have to say I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't think there is a more proper pet for kids on a school budget than a nice established 10gal aquarium.

That said, I agree with most of whats been said before. Immediate 50% water change, and continue that on a daily basis. Cut back on the feeding as well, these animals do not need to be feed daily and doing so simply adds to the toxic water issue. Every other day or even every three days is fine until the tank becomes more established. Picking up some established filter media to help seed bacteria in your existing tank or even some established substrate or decorations will help speed the cycle ~ ask around your school and contact others schools in the area, as well as your LFS, if they have any of the above which they would be willing to share. Finally, don't panic - keep up on the daily water changes, being sure to add some type of dechlorinator to tap water or use RO or RO/DI water for the water changes, and everything should pull through fine.

 

[librarygirl]

Wow, as a fellow classroom teacher, I have to say I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't think there is a more proper pet for kids on a school budget than a nice established 10gal aquarium.

That said, I agree with most of whats been said before. Immediate 50% water change, and continue that on a daily basis. Cut back on the feeding as well, these animals do not need to be feed daily and doing so simply adds to the toxic water issue. Every other day or even every three days is fine until the tank becomes more established. Picking up some established filter media to help seed bacteria in your existing tank or even some established substrate or decorations will help speed the cycle ~ ask around your school and contact others schools in the area, as well as your LFS, if they have any of the above which they would be willing to share. Finally, don't panic - keep up on the daily water changes, being sure to add some type of dechlorinator to tap water or use RO or RO/DI water for the water changes, and everything should pull through fine.

An established tank, that is appropriately stocked, yes, also assuming the fish don't suddenly come down with an illness that needs to be treated (which would require emergency funds) -- but that isn't what we're dealing with here. A new, uncycled tank, that should have a good liquid test kit (strip are NOT accurate) and keep up with dechlorinator, etc., can have unexpected costs.

If the OP is willing to do the 50% water changes 1-2x daily for 3-8 weeks and get a good test kit, then that's great, a fish-in cycle is doable with the time and commitment required to do see the fish through. To me though it didn't sound that way from reading her reply. I could have misinterpreted however.

 

[Wy Renegade]

An established tank, that is appropriately stocked, yes, also assuming the fish don't suddenly come down with an illness that needs to be treated (which would require emergency funds) -- but that isn't what we're dealing with here. A new, uncycled tank, that should have a good liquid test kit (strip are NOT accurate) and keep up with dechlorinator, etc., can have unexpected costs.

If the OP is willing to do the 50% water changes 1-2x daily for 3-8 weeks and get a good test kit, then that's great, a fish-in cycle is doable with the time and commitment required to do see the fish through. To me though it didn't sound that way from reading her reply. I could have misinterpreted however.

First off, the OP took the most important required step correctly; she came here and asked for advice. Instead of shooting her down for the perhaps not so wise choices she has already made, perhaps encouraging her to take the appropriate steps now would be a better way to go?

As for a fish in cycle, the biggest requirement now is a commitment to fixing the mistake, by coming here and asking, she's show she is ready to take that step; if she wasn't why bother to ask for help? All she needs is a dechlorinator at this point and regular water changes.

As for having to have a test kit, I disagree. I've been keeping freshwater aquariums for over 20 years, I have successfully breed many types of cichlids (both African and South American), as well as several species of tropical fish, I delved successfully into realms of aquarium keeping that most aquarium keepers haven't even considered (such as successfully keeping and hatching some very demanding invertes such as stoneflies), and for much of that time I have neither owned or used a single freshwater test kit.

I'm not saying that it will not make life a little easier, I'm saying it is not the end all, cure all that many people on this site seem to believe it is, nor is a absolute requirement like many of you like to preach. If the OP has a good, reliable LFS in her area, she can easily take her water there for testing once a week. Most LFSs are more than happy to perform these tests for free, nor are most LFS employees the uneducated, uncaring individuals that they are often painted as on this and other forums (not saying none of them are, just saying). Beyond the test, the fish themselves are the single best indicator of water quality there is, if you know how to pay attention to them.

As for the illness, IME of years of dealing with them in a classroom, mollies seldom come down with any illness, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that. If it happens, you deal with it ~ but why jump the gun and worry about it before it even happens?

 

[steez]

I don't see where the aggression towards Library is coming from. She gave the OP good advice that is true, sorry that she didn't sugar coat it?

In my opinion, preaching people to NOT get a test kit is just a horrible direction to go. How do you setup a good water testing schedule if you have no idea how fast your nitrates go up? How do you know the stage of the cycle, like the NitrIte spike phase, without a test kit? How do you know if you get any sort of minicycles, spikes or ph crashes?


Librarygirl's advice, like usual, is solid. +1

 

[picture_117]

First off, the OP took the most important required step correctly; she came here and asked for advice. Instead of shooting her down for the perhaps not so wise choices she has already made, perhaps encouraging her to take the appropriate steps now would be a better way to go?

As for a fish in cycle, the biggest requirement now is a commitment to fixing the mistake, by coming here and asking, she's show she is ready to take that step; if she wasn't why bother to ask for help? All she needs is a dechlorinator at this point and regular water changes.

As for having to have a test kit, I disagree. I've been keeping freshwater aquariums for over 20 years, I have successfully breed many types of cichlids (both African and South American), as well as several species of tropical fish, I delved successfully into realms of aquarium keeping that most aquarium keepers haven't even considered (such as successfully keeping and hatching some very demanding invertes such as stoneflies), and for much of that time I have neither owned or used a single freshwater test kit.

I'm not saying that it will not make life a little easier, I'm saying it is not the end all, cure all that many people on this site seem to believe it is, nor is a absolute requirement like many of you like to preach. If the OP has a good, reliable LFS in her area, she can easily take her water there for testing once a week. Most LFSs are more than happy to perform these tests for free, nor are most LFS employees the uneducated, uncaring individuals that they are often painted as on this and other forums (not saying none of them are, just saying). Beyond the test, the fish themselves are the single best indicator of water quality there is, if you know how to pay attention to them.

As for the illness, IME of years of dealing with them in a classroom, mollies seldom come down with any illness, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that. If it happens, you deal with it ~ but why jump the gun and worry about it before it even happens?

The main reason for worrying would be that the op is unexperienced to fish keeping. She doesn't know what to look for in fish. Also if the fish got to the point of them showing signs of any unbalance in the tank that's to far IMO. She's starting out without any previous knowledge in fish. Also the tank is at school and she is a teacher, she can't have a constant look at the tank with the kids/going home at a certain time. Any advice would have to be given with that in mind.
The best would be to get a test kit since there is a fish-in cycle happening. Until then constant large water changes are needed. She hasn't doomed her tank, I would reduce feeding to maybe every other day.

 

[ShadoeFox]

Good point on the reduced feeding. I had forgotten that as well. Reducing feeding, for the OP's knowledge, will reduce the waste produced. Obvious, but your concern might be that not feeding them enough will hurt the fish. The good news is fish can go fairly extended times between feedings, and I'd wager the frogs can too. If you feed every other day (Or just reduce the amount you're feeding if that makes you uncomfortable)

And I have to agree that, while a test kit or strips (they aren't the devil, though I prefer API's master test like just about everyone around here) aren't a panacea for every problem that would come up, it's a wonderful tool especially for the less experienced. Also, since her class is old enough for some more in depth science, it gives an opportunity to add a science educational aspect to the deal (Hand out something on the nitrogen cycle, or what have you.) Might spark some interest in science to see it "hands on" that early.

Now, as for someone's comment about "aggression" towards Librarygirl and "Sugar coating". I have no agression towards her, nor anyone else. I do, however, feel that "Giving it to someone straight" can become "Nonconstructive lecturing" very quickly (Note: Librarygirl. I don't feel you actually crossed the line. At least not in every aspect).

People come on here, frequently because they have suddenly had something go horribly wrong and they want help. They want someone to say "Don't panic, we can help you fix this." Here's a hint, most of the time we can.

Got a Molly, or worse yet a common pleco, in a ten gallon. Okay, yes, you're going to have to look into doing something about that. We know that, new hobbyists don't. New hobbyists ALSO don't know all the tricks to finding cheap new tanks, options for keeping the fish healthy short term while other options are researched... etc.

Started a fish in cycle because you had no idea such things existed, and the store employee (And no, not all of them don't know what they are doing, but far to many of them definately do not). Okay, here's how we save your fish THEN here's what you are going to need to do, with options thrown in (Test kit, test strip, drive to a reliable fish store once or twice a week during the cycle).

Sometimes our postings around here seem to start with "Take the fish back and get a test kit." This may not read "You idiot, what did you think you were doing" but it's how it feels. It's how it felt to me, as a matter of fact. Simply put... yes, she should have shown some empathy... sugar coated... what she said. I have it on good authority a spoonful does a great deal of good with medicine.

 

[Wy Renegade]

I don't see where the aggression towards Library is coming from. She gave the OP good advice that is true, sorry that she didn't sugar coat it?

In my opinion, preaching people to NOT get a test kit is just a horrible direction to go. How do you setup a good water testing schedule if you have no idea how fast your nitrates go up? How do you know the stage of the cycle, like the NitrIte spike phase, without a test kit? How do you know if you get any sort of minicycles, spikes or ph crashes?


Librarygirl's advice, like usual, is solid. +1

Hhhmmm I see, so you think that telling people that come here for advice that they shouldn't be keeping an aquarium in the first place is ok? Really? I don't have a problem with most of the advice that was given, my issue for the most part, was with that single statement about what a more appropriate pet for a classroom might be. The OP came here asking for help, not to get lectured on what a poor choice for a classroom pet she made (which in my opinion was not a poor choice at all). So yes, I do disagree that the advice given is solid ~ the rest of it yes, the unasked for opinion on what ought to be kept in a classroom, no.

As far as preaching not to go buy a test kit, I've done no such thing. I simply pointed out that there are ways to do this without having to go buy an expensive test kit, especially for those who are opperating on a limited budget. There are lots of ways to do things correctly in this hobby without having to spend a ton of money on them. And in my opinion the purpose of this and other such forums should be to share some of those methods. The simple truth of the matter is that you can successfully keep an aquarium (any salt or freshwater) without ever knowing when your nitrite spikes. Ask any experienced reefkeeper or freshwater keeper for that matter and most will tell you that they seldom (as in maybe once a year even bother to check ammonia or nitrite or nitrates or even pH once the tank becomes established ~ the vast majority of experienced aquarium keepers probably test less than once a month on anything). I've set up lots of both types of tanks and never bothered to test for either on many of the tanks. Now would I recommend that for a brand new person who's never kept aquariums? Absolutely not, but do I see the need for them to run out and spend a bunch of money on a master test kit that they will maybe use for two months? Not hardly.

The main reason for worrying would be that the op is unexperienced to fish keeping. She doesn't know what to look for in fish. Also if the fish got to the point of them showing signs of any unbalance in the tank that's to far IMO. She's starting out without any previous knowledge in fish. Also the tank is at school and she is a teacher, she can't have a constant look at the tank with the kids/going home at a certain time. Any advice would have to be given with that in mind.
The best would be to get a test kit since there is a fish-in cycle happening. Until then constant large water changes are needed. She hasn't doomed her tank, I would reduce feeding to maybe every other day.

Absolutely, I agree that the OP is obviously inexperienced, as she herself admitted. As far as the tank being at school, thats hardly an insurmountable issue, given that I keep over 15 aquariums running year round in my classroom. The fact of the matter is that the bacteria levels are eventually going to establish with the tank regardless of whether one is testing levels or not. Simply doing water changes on a daily basis will allow that to happen. Thats all I'm saying.

If I came across as attaching anyone (even you librarygirl) I apologize that was not my intent. The OP came here asking for advice on how to fix her aquarium, not on the question of what would be an appropriate pet in her classroom and IMO, that should be the focus of the advice given.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Sometimes our postings around here seem to start with "Take the fish back and get a test kit." This may not read "You idiot, what did you think you were doing" but it's how it feels. It's how it felt to me, as a matter of fact. Simply put... yes, she should have shown some empathy... sugar coated... what she said. I have it on good authority a spoonful does a great deal of good with medicine.

Thank you, well said. Obviously you stated if far more eloquently than I did.

 

[eco23]

Yep, let's just tell everyone who has incompatible fish in an uncycled tank which they have limited access to, and who does not have the financial means to purchase necessary items to maintain that aquarium that everything is wonderful. Sorry, but providing advice (and great information has been given) also involves pointing out the negatives about the situation which need to be remedied. Nothing here IMO has even come remotely close to crossing any lines or being harsh towards the OP. In fact, I may be about to come the closest...part of being responsible for children should be setting a good example for them. I agree to re-home the Mollys (perhaps on CL as mentioned, or in the classifieds section of this site), cycling the tank and keeping the frogs which apparently the kids are the most interested in anyway and would actually be in a suitable environment.