Curious about cycling...

[tsaraber]

I have two questing regarding cycling a new tank, I've been catching up with my reading here and am running into a lot of conflicting information so I thought I'd ask for my own curiousity and maybe it will clear things up for others as well as myself.

First, in an effort to introduce the good bacteria to a new tank, does it help at all to use water from an established tank? Should one vacuum the established tank and dump all of the crud (for lack of a better word) into the new tank or just the water? I've read that using decorations and gravel from an established tank help, is this true? This is of course assuming the tank you're taking all this from is healthy otherwise it's obviously pointless.

Next, it appears that Bio-Spira is the top choice for quick cycling. But is there any truth to the theory regarding Cycle, and how adding 4x the recommended dosage will work to cycle your tank? How about Fritz Turbo Start - anyone got any oppinions on that?

I'm going to go read some more - I'm sure I'll have more for you later..

 

[Overstocker]

Better to add "stuff" from the tank (gravel/decor/filter sponges/floss) than water. Put a bag of gravel and an old filter in your new filter and you have good starting base of bacteria. It will not multiply until you have a load on it though (dying stuff/ammonia) maybe some of the crud? from an established tank? :?

 

[TankGirl]

Wonderful questions you have here, and they are ones that so many people probably have.

I don't know how much it really helps but it can't hurt to use water from an established aquarium to cycle a tank. I think that recommendation stems from using your old tank water in the new tank when moving it, but that is really for the comfort of the fish, so that the new tank will have water that resembles the old tank as much as possible.

If you are starting a new tank the bacteria you are trying to grow (or the point of the "cycle") does not really reside in the water. I have never done a side-by-side test by cycling a tank with established tank water and without (need to do that - I would love to compare this) but the bacteria reside on solid objects like decorations, gravel and filters/media. That is why using these things on a new tank speeds up the cycle. You still have to provide a source of ammonia.

The jury is still out on products like Cycle and Turbo Start, though the latter seems a bit more promising. I meant to use it on my last cycle but I "seeded" with a couple of biowheels from other tanks and did not need it after all. "Cycle" has been used successfully by many people, but when I used it prior to Bio-Spira I never had a bit of luck with it, and don't think it is worth the money. Bio-Spira is not currently available so I am having fine luck with seed material - another benefit of MTS!

 

[lyquidphyre]

Where can you get Turbo Start? Once I set up my 75gal I want to move my pleco and dwarf gourami from my 29gal to the 75 but I want it to be cycled before I do so- just to be on the safe side.

 

[TankGirl]

None of my LFS carry Turbo Start - I would have to order it online. I Googled it that time I was going to use it and found an online source but I can't remember. If you go to the Fritz website they can probably direct you to a retailer.

Definitely post back with results if you use it - I think everyone is ready for a Bio-Spira alternative at this point.

 

[tsaraber]

Thanks so much for your replies so far - it's very much appreciated.

I did some searching for Turbo Start today. Including calling EVERY lfs in my area, none of which carry it.

Ocean Design something-or-other (can't remember the exact name) in Chicago claims to have it in stock, their phone number is (773) 736-9838.
Aquariclean - http://www.aquariclean.com/ - offered to have it shipped to us, their number is (773) 427-6466.

Or you can order it online at the following places:
http://www.poseidonsrealm.com/ - this place has it listed but their add to cart links take you directly to PayPal so I don't know if their shopping cart is just broken or if they don't carry it anymore.
http://www.aquariumsuppliesgalore.com

Unfortunately, since the stuff needs to be shipped overnight (needs to remain cold) you're looking at a HUGE shipping cost - roughly $50.00 for the Turbo Start + Shipping.

 

[tsaraber]

TG, when you seed your new tanks with things from an established tank, roughly how long does it take for your cycle to finish? Do you have any big spikes that might be of concern to the inhabitants of the new tank?

We moved all of the decorations from our old tank over to the new one as soon as the ammonia started showing up (courtesy of a few danios). The ammonia has been stuck at the same level for a few days now, it's between 2-3ppm. No nitrites, (don't have a nitrate test kit yet). The PH is slightly acidic, 6.8 thanks to a large piece of driftwood and we've got a few live plants. The temp is stuck at 84 degrees even though I run an AC all day long about 3 feet from the tank.

So I guess my real question here is, does it look like we're officially trying to cycle? Or do you think there may be something in the tank that's giving us false readings on ammonia. It's not the water conditioner (been using it on our old tank and it never gave us a problem) but we are putting in Flourish and Flourish Excel for the plants. Oh and we did use up a bottle of Hagen Cycle (the recommended dosage, one week apart for two weeks).

None of the fish look stressed btw.

 

[TankGirl]

You are cycling, but without nitrIte present yet you are not really rolling yet. It will happen, though. I am concerned about that ammonia reading - that is really hard on the fish. You need ammonia present in the water to get the cycle complete but you also need to protect the fish, so it takes longer.

When I seed a tank for cycling there are no fish present, so depending upon how much seed material I put in there it could take as short as a week or as long as 2 weeks, but even then I can't put in a full fish load. I have to monitor things very carefully once I start adding fish.

 

[tsaraber]

Thanks for the info..

As of this morning we're officially rolling. Ammonia dropped big time and the nitrites are now through the roof. I immediately did a 20% water change (in progress now). Tomorrow night I will be getting a nitrate test kit - yeah believe it or not we've been keeping tanks for almost a year and never bothered to pick up a test for nitrates

There is a LOT of seed material in there. Two bags of stones (one in the filter), all of the decorations from the old tank. I hope it's sufficient enough to get the whole process over with a little quicker. If not I have no problem keeping up with the water changes to at least make it a little easier on fish.

 

[TankGirl]

I think you are in great shape - that sounds very promising to see the ammonia drop and the nitrites spike, but now we have to spare the nitrite poisoning issue for the fish - a little salt in the water will help them tolerate it. I think you will be done sooner than you think, but be patient and measure everything daily.

 

[tsaraber]

Salt? How much, for how long, and why. lol

The why meaning what does the salt do to the nitrites?

I'm hoping it doesn't last long. We're using straight distilled water (with a few things added back in) and frankly the stares I get when I'm pushing around a cart filled with 20 gallons of water is a little unnerving. lol

We have a small distiller that will work great for weekly water changes but it just can't keep up with these big daily changes.

 

[TankGirl]

The salt does not do anything at all to the nitrites, but helps the fish tolerate the nitrite being in the water. You will definitely need to be adding in trace elements to distilled water to make it okay for fish. What about "spring" water that is sold in jugs?

 

[tsaraber]

I did some reading up on the salt thing after your last post - the amount of salt they are recommending seems outrageous to me but you know the internet, 5000 different oppinions on everything. I will definately be looking into it though, thanks for the lead.

I'm working on my second 25% water change of the day.

We are adding Fresh Trace to make up for the lack of trace elements in the distilled water. Also Neutral Regulator to deal with the PH and KH and Equilibrium to take care of the GH.

We have tried spring water before, I can't remember why we nixed it - I think it was because the PH was outrageous but I also think that was back before we knew anything about KH and GH. Chances are we could have lowered the PH of the spring water but we never knew enough to try - we were just hunting for the perfect water right out of the jug.

 

[TankGirl]

I don't blame you for wanting perfect water - maybe you could find a RO unit and mix that with your tap for the perfect water.

 

[tsaraber]

We just bought a distiller that seems to work really well. No waste, we figured out that the water will cost like .14 a gallon (not including the price of the distiller of course - can't figure that in until we see how many gallons we can get out of it).

Hubby won't let me mix in tap water, he is very adamant about not putting that stuff in our tank. lol I kinda wish he'd change his mind though. I think mixing in tap water to deal with the GH and trace elements is a little easier and cheaper than trying to use the additives. Hear that honey?

 

[hashbaz]

I'm a big fan of RO systems. Half my tap water is fully filtered and half is only partially filtered. It gets rid of all chlorine some of the hardness and leaves some of the minerals.

I looked at a distiller but the one I saw uses an electric heater to evaporate and then condense the water. Is this the way yours works? If you don't have to pay for electricty then who cares, but if you do - your water could become quite expensive. PS I totally agree with you on the tap water thing.

 

[tsaraber]

Yep, that sounds pretty much like our distiller. We do have to pay for electricity but all things considered, at roughly .14 per gallon it's a whole lot cheaper than buying it from the store.

Maybe if and when this thing dies on us we'll look into RO water. Do you have a lot of waste water with your system?