cycling a bettah tank

[Shadow22]

Hello,
I planning on getting some betta (2-3) from Faith on Betta Talk( these are going to be expensive fish, I might spend up to $50 of each fish, thus I don't want any of them to die). I have a 20H gallon divided tank ( and I have no other established tank) I'm planning on putting them in. I have just about everything I need except I haven't cycled. I had planned on doing a fishless cycle with pure ammonia. I've been all over the net and everthing about fishless cycling is contradicting. On thing says use plants to speed up the process another says plants will only slow it down. One says put some ammonia in a wait a week then add more another says add it every day , and so on and so forth. Can anyone explain the process to me very clearly? But do I even have to cycle? Two betta in a 20 gallon doesn't seem like they'd make much waste and I've been told I might not have to. The breeder I'm getting them from says she has never cycled a tank and never had a problem. What should I do? I'm so confused.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Jchillin]

Bettas...the confusion is thus:

The only way to keep the water free of ammonia, nitrites and/or nitrates is to completely remove all the water on a regular basis. This method streses the fish, hence, the need for a cycled tank.

Cycling is pretty easy but it takes patience. The fishless method is utilized primarily to avoid needless fish deaths during a fish cycle.

Pure ammonia (no detergents or additives) is the quickest method. You use the pure ammonia to replicate the amounts of ammonia that would be present if produced by fish. By testing your parameters reguarily (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) you will know exactly when your tank is cycled.

Whichever method you chose, you're looking at a minimum 3-5 week process. In regard to plants...not necessary at all. People who cycle with plants are most likely setting up a heavily planted tank.

HTH

 

[Shadow22]

Thanks for the help. What about declorinators. I bought declorinators that affect ammonia and I heard that that can uncycle a tank, when is if safe to use them, I have a very small bottle of another kind of declorinator for the time being.

 

[An t-iasg]

I have seen the website "Betta Talk" ! Yes, she does have pretty, and expensive bettas. I would definitely cycle that tank before you get the bettas. Set it up the way you want, and add pure ammonia to cycle. You can do searches on this forum or on the Internet for fishless cycling methods. When you add the bettas, since it will be a small bio-load, keep checking your parameters to make sure everything is ok. Bettas are sensitive and can get finrot if exposed to ammonia. So make sure everything is well with the tank first. I wouldn't want those gorgeous fish to get finrot!

I use Novaqua and Amquel. I have never tried Amquel+. I think the regular Amquel is fine. Novaqua removes chlorine and adds some beneficial electrolytes. Amquel removes chlorine and chloramines. Chloramine may be added by your water company also, and it is a molecule of ammonia and chlorine. The key to using Amquel is -- only use the dose recommended to initially treat your tapwater. The dose on the bottle is for 5 gallons. I use 8-10 drops for one gallon, since I do a water change of one gallon a week. This dose removes the ammonia that is present in the chloramine molecule. Removing this ammonia won't interfere with the cycle.

If you have an ammonia spike in your tank, lower the ammonia by doing a water change. Don't dump a large quantity of Amquel (or other brands such as Ammo Lock) into the tank, because at that quantity, those products will interfere with your cycle. They will bind the ammonia away from the bacteria you are trying to grow and colonize in your tank. If the bacteria has no food source (the ammonia) it will die, and you'll have to start over in cycling your tank. Once the bacteria establishes in your tank -- from a fishless cycle, using fish to cycle, or seed material from another established tank -- this bacteria will break down the ammonia and wastes from the fish, leading to a healthy tank for the fish and just a small (25% of tank volume) water change once a week for you.

 

[Shadow22]

Thank you for helping as well.
What about aqurium salt and medications? I heard if yo add them immediately after cycling it will uncycle a tank. I really appriciate this help guys.

 

[An t-iasg]

There are many hobbyists who swear by adding a bit of salt, and others who are just as adamant that it is a waste. (In a disease situation, like ich, it is helpful, but that's a different story than just adding salt at every water change.)

To my betta tanks, I used to add 1/4 teaspoon of salt per gallon. From reading all the posts on salt here, I've decided to cut back to 1/8 teaspoon or less per gallon. The bettas and the plants seem to be fine with it. If you do this, use aquarium salt. There are brands by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (the Doc Wellfish brand) or Jungle brand, that are good for freshwater tanks. Don't use table salt or anything labeled marine salt.

Medications, such as antibiotics, can disrupt your good bacteria and cause an ammonia spike in the tank. Antibiotics kill bad bacteria, but they also can kill enough of your good bacteria to raise your ammonia level a little. That's why it is recommended to have a separate tank, called a quarantine or hospital tank, to dose antibiotics in.

What kind of filter are you getting for this tank? And of course you'll have to post pics!

 

[Shadow22]

This is what the tank looks like right now. Not much yet, but I plan to add some live plants and may be a couple fake ones.

 

[Shadow22]

btw, I use a penguin bio-wheel.

 

[lannen]

Much like An t-iasg said above, any change to a tank can disrupt the balance of anything living in the tank, including the desirable bacteria from cycling. This can include changed to the salinity of the water or the addition of any medications or treatments (even different water treatment chemicals could upset the tank, though not as much as other things). If you want to change what you are doing to a tank (such as adding salt), you should do it gradually, usually with your water changes. If you wanted to add salt to an established tank (say a 1/4 tsp per gallon), start with a smaller amount in your water change, probably an 1/8 tsp. And then the next time you do a water change, move it up to a 1/4 tsp, and don't worry about adding any directly to the tank. Of course I do weekly water changes, so if you do monthly changes, you might want to speed it up by adding a small amount to the tank every week.

Faith's website is a great resource about caring for bettas, and while I wouldn't recommend using her as your only source (I think you should always try to get differing opinions), you should be able to trust what she says. Right now I can't remember exactly how she treats her water and tanks, but if you wanted to have the best success with bettas from her, it is probably a good idea to try to get your water as much like her's as possible.

Good luck with the bettas.

 

[Shadow22]

Thanks for the advice.

Well, i grabbed some ammonia awhile ago and I'm gonna start cycling it soon I guess. I'm setting up a 10 gallon now too. I'm going to try to adopt one of Faith's culls. The 10 gallon won't be as nice but it'll do.

Faith's website is a great resource about caring for bettas, and while I wouldn't recommend using her as your only source (I think you should always try to get differing opinions),

Yeah, I've been to just about every betta site on the web.

 

[Shadow22]

I need help!
Ok, I used a medicine dropper and put 8 drops of ammonia in and waited 1/2 hour. I tested and the ammonia level barely registeres. I added two more drops and waited awhile and tested agin I got 0.50 ppm, I added one more drop and i dare not add anymore today. I don't know whats wrong. I added Amaquel+ yesterday morn, I figured it won't hurt before I cycled, but maybe it did. Or maybe I'm not getting big enough drops from my dropper, or maybe becuase I rinsed out the dropper I diluted the ammonia to where 11 drops wasn't as much or a combination of the three. What should i do? :?

 

[An t-iasg]

I have no experience with a fishless cycle, sorry. I know that Tom2K and carpediem are a few of the members who have done fishless cycles. If they don't pop in here, you could PM them. There are also many threads on fishless cycling -- you could click on the "Search" feature of this board to find them.

 

[Shadow22]

Thanks, but I think I found the problem. The "clear ammonia" I got is water and ammonia surfactants, not pure ammonia...grrrrr

 

[lannen]

I'm not really experienced with fishless cycling either, but my understanding was that you start with a small amount of ammonia (nitrogen), and then added more. Having a huge spike immediately may not be what is wanted (but like I said, I'm not experienced here). You do probably want to get actual ammonia so that might be your problem. Though you should be using treated water, the same as you will be using with your fish.

If you are having trouble finding ammonia, then maybe you could consider using an animal to cycle your tank. There are some hardy fish that should survive a cycle and be compatable with your betta, such as mollys and white clouds. Or you could always use invertebrates to cycle. Snails and ghost shrimp are great and how I like to cycle my tanks.

 

[Shadow22]

My goodness, I might just have to use somthing else. I've been to 5 different stores today and can't find any pure ammonia. I'm going to keep trying to find the ammonia for now, but incase, how do you use snails? That sounds much more promising than fish. How long does it take to cycle with them?

 

[lannen]

Snails make waste just like all other animals do, so they produce nitrogen wastes like a fish would. And shrimp would do the same thing. Just be sure to feed them. You might want to be careful with snails, as some species can take over a tank (I'm not really a snail expert so, I don't know which would be best). And it's hard to say how long it will take, you just need to monitor the water condition. Though it shouldn't take much longer than a fishless cycle, depending on your bio-load.

I like to use ghost shrimp, since they're really cheap (and pretty interesting), so it's easy to get the bio-load that you want with up thinking about spending a lot of money just to cycle your tank. Of course, this can be seen as torturing the snails and shrimp, the same way it's viewed with fish, but it's your call.

 

[An t-iasg]

Here's a thread on fishless cycling: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=45011&highlight=

The method for cycling used in this thread is a raw shrimp from the grocery store to rot and produce ammonia.

 

[Shadow22]

Well, I've gotten two bottles of ammonia that were wrong and this last one has deionized water in it and might be diluted. Will it hurt if I just add enought to bring it to 5 ppm even if it is kind of alot?

 

[lannen]

So long as all that is in the solution is ammonia and DI water, it should be fine, but there could be other things in there also, so that is something to watch out for. I'm not familiar with ammonia distributors, so I don't know what is common or possible to be used. Another possibility is that the DI water is just used to bring a concentrated solution to a standardized solution for sale. Is there any information on the bottle about the amount of ammonia in the bottle?

If you're comfortable that there is just DI water and ammonia in the solution, then I don't see any reason not to use it.

 

[Shadow22]

ok, heres the story. I got "clear ammonia and put it in my 20 gal but it was water and ammonia surfantants. I did put a little in but I figured it wouldn't hurt and I let it filter out for 24 hours. ( 11 drops only drought it up to .5 ppm)
Then I got this ammonia and it says Deionized water, ammonia hydroxide, cleateing agent ( I heard this would be ok) and added it to my 10 gallon. I added 7 drops and it only brought it to 1.0 ppm.
Worst yet my pH sky rocketed to 8.0( it was at 7.2) Is this normal? What should I do? Agh.. I'm so confused :|