Cycling question (filter needed?)

[RabidChild]

I was just thinking and wasn't sure if I actually needed a filter to begin the fishless cycling process. I have a couple of small powerheads to move the water around. I have a HOB filter on order and some parts for my cannister coming too but I wasn't sure I really needed to have them up and running before starting. From what I've read a lot of the bacteria live in the substrate of the tank.

Could I just go ahead and start adding ammonia and then just add the filters on when they show up. I'm assuming at least it wouldn't hurt anything, and might even give me a head start to getting the tank cycled.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

A filter is need to cycle a tank. You can't cycle unless you have it. The big majority of the bacteria lies in the filter. Some is in the substrate and decor, but the biggest portion of it is in the filter. It won't hurt to add the ammonia now, but it won't speed up the process.

BTW- Good question.

 

[RabidChild]

Thanks, I dosed it with some amonia last night so I guess I just let it sit till I get the filters up and running.

I'm one of the most patient people alive but staring at this empty 90 gallon tank is starting to get to me and I haven't even started cycling yet. 8O

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I know what you mean. I was looking at a completly empty 55 gal tank for 2 weeks, then added the decor and am still looking at a fish empty tank and will be for another 2 weeks. I am tempted to bite my tongue and pay double the price for the heater just so I can get it up and going. But once I get the heater it will be an instant cycle since my filter is now running on a different tank.

 

[talloulou]

You can start the cycle process without a filter. I would put some airstones in to keep the water high in oxygen but there isn't any reason why the process can't be started without a filter. The bacteria can begin to colonize in your gravel.

 

[talloulou]

Fishyfanatic- many tanks cycle without ever having a filter. For example if you keep a betta in a small bowl with gravel and no filter (which I don't personally recommend) the bowl will still go through the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate cycle. The bacteria will live in the gravel. It's almost impossible for any sitting water to not "cycle" if given enough time.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Talloulou- It is very hard to cycle a small betta bowl. If I remember correctly, that's why you have to change out the water so much, because it doesn't cycle. When I say a betta bowl, I am referring to the small glass bowls that most places will push on you as a good home for the Betta, when in reality is about 1/2 gal to a gal in size. These "homes" are not recommended for Betta's by aquarists just because of the size of it and the near-impossibilty to cycle.

The addition of the ammonia won't speed up the cycle by any measurable amount. From what I've read, it may help by about a day or so, but it's not like when the filter is added the tank will be instantly cycled. Gravel doesn't hold much bacteria, the filter does.

 

[talloulou]

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the problems with a betta "bowl." However I believe the problems come from the bowl being so small and small environments are hard to stabilize. However the bowl will cycle.

Any tank with water in it will cycle. As long as their is adequate oxygen the tank will cycle. Even if you never added fish or ammonia.....something would naturally make its way into the water and the tank would begin to cycle. It might take awhile but it would happen.

You do not NEED a filter to start the cycling process. IMO. But we can always agree to disagree.......

 

[talloulou]

Also not sure why you would think the addition of ammonia wouldn't speed up the cycling process. The addition of ammonia or fish food or (my favorite- fish) will definitely speed up the process. Otherwise you have to wait for some other bacteria food source to natuarally make its way into your tank to get the cycle started. This will eventually happen but adding ammonia speeds this process up.

Maybe we are just not understanding one another...... I've been known to lapse into spells of retardation before.

 

[RabidChild]

I guess either way it won't hurt anything to give it a shot. I'll do some water tests and try to report back what I find out over the next week or so...

 

[greenmaji]

You do need something for the bacteria to adhere to and O2 getting to that media + ammonia (the bacteria would starve without it)

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Tall- I meant that to add the ammonia without having the filter wouldn't hurt nor help the tank cycle faster since there isn't a filter. Sure it may cycle, but if you don't have a filter it will take a LONG time. Once a filter is in place, just start dosing with ammonia. Its cleaner and you don't have to wait for anything to decompose for the ammonia to start releasing.

But yes, you are right Rabid, it won't hurt anything.

 

[TygGer]

You definately DO NOT need a filter to start a cycle. Will it help? Definitely.

It's true that a filter can house a large portion of beneficial bacteria, esp. if you use ceramic rings or something with tons of surface area.

You can't say that a HOB filter houses the majority of the bacteria. It's one of those, "it depends" statements. The bacteria lives on all of the surface area in your tank; ie. substrate, ornaments and even the glass.

If you have a huge tank with tons of substrate and a small HOB filter, then I would say the majority of the bact. lives on the substrate.

I've used Whisper filters (these don't have bio-wheels or anything special to house bio) and changed out the filter cartridge completely and not notice a cycle. This means that the bact. living inside the tank was able to compensate for the loss bact. on the trashed media.

Here's the catch, adding too much ammonia can actually slow down your cycle. There's an equilibrium for everything. If you add too much ammonia, it will take more time for your beneficial bacteria to grow to match the amount of ammonia and nitrite in your system. If you add too much ammonia to start and stock your tank lightly, you will lose beneficial bateria porportion to the amount of ammonia produced by your fish.

If you cycle using too little ammonia, then you may notice a mini-cycle when you add fish. Hence the reason why it is recommned to stock your tank slowly.

The reason you have to change the water out so often in a betta bowl is not because it doesn't cycle. It's because the water can become very toxic very fast in such a small amount of water.

HTH

 

[TygGer]

Forgot to mention... you will need to aerate the tank at the least. Turning up the termperature to around 82degs. will also help speed up the cycle.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

If you have a huge tank with tons of substrate and a small HOB filter, then I would say the majority of the bact. lives on the substrate.

If you have a huge tank and a small HOB filter, then the tank is underfiltered. In a properly filtered tank, most of the bacteria is in the filter. It just doens't seem realistic though to have a filter for a 10 gal tank on a 100 gal tank.

Here's the catch, adding too much ammonia can actually slow down your cycle.

Aim around 2 ppm for the Ammonia. When you start getting way off the charts, it will stall the cycle.

The reason you have to change the water out so often in a betta bowl is not because it doesn't cycle. It's because the water can become very toxic very fast in such a small amount of water.

But if the tank isn't cycled, then the ammonia doesn't convert to Nitrites, which then doesn't convert to Nitrates. There was a thread about this not too long ago.

 

[TygGer]

The reason you have to change the water out so often in a betta bowl is not because it doesn't cycle. It's because the water can become very toxic very fast in such a small amount of water.

But if the tank isn't cycled, then the ammonia doesn't convert to Nitrites, which then doesn't convert to Nitrates. There was a thread about this not too long ago.[/quote]

Aren't we talking about cycling the bowl? If yes, then of course it isn't cycled yet. During the cycle, the ammonia and trites will peak. Due to the small volume of water, this spike will become very toxic to anything living in the system.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

That's what I'm talking about, cycling the bowl. This is getting off track of the original question. And I think it has already been answered. Yes you can add the ammonia now, it won't hurt the tank.