Dual 20 gallon and 55 gallon fishless water cycle and builds

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graphicpunk said:
Oh I didn't know that wasn't a trusted brand. It seemed to help the cycle along a bit.

So can I just transfer some of the water from the almost cycled tank to the not cycled tank to help speed that one up? I just bought some more of that nutrafin but if I can avoid it I will return it.

Both these 20 gallon tanks have the same set up. So same filters, same water heaters same air tubes.

Tanks look nice. :)

The water itself contains virtually no beneficial bacteria...the bulk of it is in the filter media. Donating water really won't do anything other than skew your levels a bit. I'd donate a piece of filter...but remember it will likely set the tank it's been removed from back a bit.

Since it's late in the cycle...it's not worth a long explanation...but the Nutrafin stuff contains the wrong type of bacteria (heterotrophs). They can make a tank appear cycled...only to crash later when the bacteria die off and / or change function. It's something I'd be cautious about and avoid in the future. If someone convinces you to use a bottled bacteria...Tetra SafeStart and Dr. Tim's O & O are the only ones I have remote faith in.
 
Ah that is good to know! I didn't open the Nutrafin bottle yet so I may just return it to Petsmart. Do any of the big name pet stores carry those brands you speak of (i.e. Petsmart/Petco)?

I am hoping the Nutrafin isn't faking me out right now because the Ammonia didn't start dropping until days after I did the three days of dosage the nutrafin told me to do. I haven't put any in since but I didn't start noticing the drop in Ammonia until after that.

However I do have some old bio wheels and old filters from when I first had them running on my 55 and I put those into the tank for sometime even before the Nutrafin. The bio wheels are from the original owner of the tank/filter and would bacteria still be on the bio wheels even when out of the water and put into storage?

In the end I only plan on having 2 or 3 fish in each of the 20 gallon tanks and I don't plan on even feeding them that often. I also do PWC's like once a week. It is more or less a holding tank for 5 months.
 
graphicpunk said:
Ah that is good to know! I didn't open the Nutrafin bottle yet so I may just return it to Petsmart. Do any of the big name pet stores carry those brands you speak of (i.e. Petsmart/Petco)?

I am hoping the Nutrafin isn't faking me out right now because the Ammonia didn't start dropping until days after I did the three days of dosage the nutrafin told me to do. I haven't put any in since but I didn't start noticing the drop in Ammonia until after that.

However I do have some old bio wheels and old filters from when I first had them running on my 55 and I put those into the tank for sometime even before the Nutrafin. The bio wheels are from the original owner of the tank/filter and would bacteria still be on the bio wheels even when out of the water and put into storage?

In the end I only plan on having 2 or 3 fish in each of the 20 gallon tanks and I don't plan on even feeding them that often. I also do PWC's like once a week. It is more or less a holding tank for 5 months.

Dry bacteria = dead bacteria, so that's not where the movement is coming from. Hopefully it's happening naturally...but we'll see.

Bottled bacteria is a touchy subject...and very complicated. I'd spend an hour typing it out if I try to explain it here...so check out this link. It's a long discussion / argument we had about the different brands. The important thing to remember isn't simply if something "works", it's about how it works and what long term consequences can be. It's a long thread but trust me when I say it's both educational and entertaining, lol.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/seachem-stability-168704.html
 
Returned the Nutrafin and got the Tetra Safe Start instead. I made sure tank 2 had 4.0ppm Ammonia before I emptied the Safe Start in. I tested to see if we made any progress on the Ammonia and not yet. Hopefully I will see some results soon.

As for tank one it was back down to 0.25ppm Ammonia. Nitrites are still off the chart but the Nitrates are still sitting at like 20ppm although I don't think my test results were accurate. I will test the Nitrates tomorrow. Dosed the Ammonia back to 4.0.

Heaters are still heating, bubblers are still bubbling.
 
graphicpunk said:
Returned the Nutrafin and got the Tetra Safe Start instead. I made sure tank 2 had 4.0ppm Ammonia before I emptied the Safe Start in. I tested to see if we made any progress on the Ammonia and not yet. Hopefully I will see some results soon.

As for tank one it was back down to 0.25ppm Ammonia. Nitrites are still off the chart but the Nitrates are still sitting at like 20ppm although I don't think my test results were accurate. I will test the Nitrates tomorrow. Dosed the Ammonia back to 4.0.

Heaters are still heating, bubblers are still bubbling.

Haha, I see someone has read the guide. It's best when people say "in step 14 you say.....", and I'm thinking to myself...what the heck did I write in section 14?, and I've got to go back and look, lol.

What I'll say about SafeStart is that it DOES contain the correct strains of beneficial bacteria. However none of these products are a guarantee...so we can only hope for the best.

I'll have to read back through the thread a bit cause I can't remember...but if the no2 has been off the charts for a while...a massive water change to bring them into readable levels never hurts. It's not mandatory though, so if you don't feel like breaking the buckets out don't worry about it. Pwc's are only vital if you see conversion slowing or the pH dropping...though they can help at other times too.
 
I will test everything this weekend to see where I am at them probably do a 50% water change if it wont hurt anything. Easier to do the water changes when it isn't snowing out. So far our fall has been a beaut. 70+ all week!

Also I haven't tested the PH levels since day one. I will test those as well.
 
graphicpunk said:
Also I haven't tested the PH levels since day one. I will test those as well.

Yeah, that's a biggie. The pH level is the single most underrated aspect of cycling IMO. Your be shocked how many issues can be traced back to pH fluctuation problems.
 
Tested the PH Level on tank one and I tested it before I re-upped the Ammonia.

PH level is at 7.6
High Range PH level was at 7.4
Ammonia went from 4ppm to .05ppm
NitrAtes between 5.0ppm and 10ppm

Tested the Ammonia in tank 2 and didn't look like much had changed since I put in the Tetra Safe Start. So still waiting on that tank to start moving.

Should I do a water change on tank 1?
 
We got movement in tank 2!. Checked the Ammonia today and it had to be down to around 1.0ppm. So things are starting to happen now in tank 2. Tank 1 is same ole same old. I does it up to 4.0ppm around this time and by the time I get home tomorrow it will be back down to about 0.25ppm.

PH levels in both tanks are not crazy. Both are around 7.6 and 7.4/7.8 on the high level PH.

Nitrites in Tank 1 are still off the chart while tank 2 has just begun. So Nitrites in Tank2 were right around 0ppm.

NitrAtes in Tank 1 were still around 20ppm so no major change there. Still have to test Tank 2.

Starting on getting my 50gal ready for cleaning and cycling. I put the filter back on it after a cleaning and rinsing. I want to get that thing running before I do a water change in hopes to catch any bacteria that might be in there. I also got a nice 250 Aqueon Pro heater for the big tank which I will fire up once I get the one fish out of that tank.

So hopefully in the next couple weeks I can finish the cycle in 20gal tanks out in the garage so I can move a couple fish in from the pond while I start cycling my 50gal.

I am waiting like 30 minutes before I do any water tests on the 50gal so the water can cycle through the filter. Just want to make sure the water isn't so harmful it will kill the one fish in there right now.

So this is starting to get exciting. I had my doubts about all this actually working out. My wife thinks I am crazy and spending way too much time with this.
 
Ok did a water test on my 50gal. The readings are much different than what I am used to. I guess what is safe for fish and what do I have to look out for?

PH -6.6
PH High Color was above 7.4 so it was off the chart
Ammonia - 0.25ppm
NitrIte - 0ppm
NitrAte - between 40ppm and 80ppm

I do have some PH Up if I need to get the pH level's up otherwise I can do a water change. I did just add about 10 gallons of dechlorinated/primed water before I got the filter going.

I just want to make sure the one fish in there doesn't die before I can move him to the cycled tank.
 
If the PH is always at 6.6 then its' fine. If it has fallen from a higher PH then it could be crashing.

Generally you only need to use the High PH test if the normal PH test is a darker blue than the highest level on the PH test (7.6). Messing with PH is usually not needed and can be dangerous for the fish. They can adapt to any PH as long as it's stable. I just want to make sure the 6.6 is your normal PH and it didn't drop.

Nitrates are on the high end for fish; 40 is maxiumum I'd let them get, 20 or less is ideal. Ammonia is borderline toxic at .25. I'd do a 50% water change if there's a fish in that tank. Don't forget to use dechlorinator and try to match the temperature as closely as you can.
 
Ok so I should probably check the pH level again in a few hours? I never really tested for pH before so I don't know if it has come down or not.

My tap water has about 0.25ppm in it with nitrAtes straight out of the faucet. So should I do a 50% water change and prime declorhinate the water before I put it back in? I bought some prime for this reason.
 
Ok did a 20 gallon water change since I added 10 gallons of freshwater before I did the testing. I added my dechlorinator and prime in each bucket before I filled it up. I am going to wait about 30 minutes for the water to cycle through the filter before I do any water tests. I can say the water I changed out was pretty dirty as I haven't really done any water changes this summer. Just been adding water as it has evaporated. I only have one gold fish in this 50 gal so I just figured he was fine.
 
So after retesting here are the results:

pH went up a bit to 6.8
NitrAtes stayed about the same in between 40ppm and 80ppm
NitrItes went up to 0.25ppm
Ammonia went up to 0.50ppm

Is that normal for the NitrItes to go up like that after a water change? I do believe my tap water has some Ammonia,NitrItes and NitrAtes already in it. I put in the dechlorinator and prime into each bucket before I filled it up with water. Do I need to put some Prime directly into the tank to neutralize it? The tank isn't cycled either but I have had a single fancy goldfish living in the tank since early summer.

Should I fill up a 5 gallon bucket with prime and tap water and test it and transfer the fish to the bucket for the time being? I just don't want to kill the fish. Do I wait a day and test again tomorrow?
 
graphicpunk said:
So after retesting here are the results:

pH went up a bit to 6.8
NitrAtes stayed about the same in between 40ppm and 80ppm
NitrItes went up to 0.25ppm
Ammonia went up to 0.50ppm

Is that normal for the NitrItes to go up like that after a water change? I do believe my tap water has some Ammonia,NitrItes and NitrAtes already in it. I put in the dechlorinator and prime into each bucket before I filled it up with water. Do I need to put some Prime directly into the tank to neutralize it? The tank isn't cycled either but I have had a single fancy goldfish living in the tank since early summer.

Should I fill up a 5 gallon bucket with prime and tap water and test it and transfer the fish to the bucket for the time being? I just don't want to kill the fish. Do I wait a day and test again tomorrow?

To be honest...I'm a bit lost. Since we're pretty deep into the thread, a total summation might be a good idea. So, the 50 gallon has fish, but the 20 gallon is what we're cycling, right?

The tests above are from the tank with fish in it though?

And no, water changes should never cause a nitrIte spike unless there is no2 on the tap water which is rare.

If you're using buckets, adding Prime directly to each one is the best way. If you're using a water changing system, that's when you add Prime directly to the tank.
 
The 50 gallon is my inside tank and it has one fish in it. The fish has been in the tank since early summer without a filter. I would add new water as it evaporated but I never did any major water changes. Today I cleaned up the old filter and put it back on the tank to get it ready to cycle since the two 20 gallon tanks, out in the garage, are making progress.

After adding the filter, to my 50 gallon, I wanted to test the water to make sure it wasn't going to kill the one fish in the tank. My test results are listed above. My plan was to move the one fish to on of the cycled tanks when it was fully cycled then start on cycling the 50 gallon.

I added Prime directly to the bucket before I put water in it but maybe I didn't out enough? The directions have it measured out for 50 gallons at once but not 5 gallons at a time if that makes sense? So I would just put a very small amount for each 5 gallon bucket.

I will test the water again tomorrow and maybe my results were off a bit. My question is what to look for as I am still learning all this stuff.
 
graphicpunk said:
The 50 gallon is my inside tank and it has one fish in it. The fish has been in the tank since early summer without a filter. I would add new water as it evaporated but I never did any major water changes. Today I cleaned up the old filter and put it back on the tank to get it ready to cycle since the two 20 gallon tanks, out in the garage, are making progress.

After adding the filter, to my 50 gallon, I wanted to test the water to make sure it wasn't going to kill the one fish in the tank. My test results are listed above. My plan was to move the one fish to on of the cycled tanks when it was fully cycled then start on cycling the 50 gallon.

I added Prime directly to the bucket before I put water in it but maybe I didn't out enough? The directions have it measured out for 50 gallons at once but not 5 gallons at a time if that makes sense? So I would just put a very small amount for each 5 gallon bucket.

I will test the water again tomorrow and maybe my results were off a bit. My question is what to look for as I am still learning all this stuff.

Okay, first I assume I don't have to give you a hard time about the Goldfish, right? You learned the error of your ways? :). Water changes have a lot more to do than just lowering no3 and keeping things clean. Dissolved solids (google "old tank syndrome") play a huge part too. By "without a filter" I hope you mean like without an air stone...not just a fish in stagnant water.

Remember that Prime doesn't technically remove anything. What it does is neutralize the toxins, but technically they're still in there (just in a different form) so the water will test the same whether Prime has been added or not. I usually add like 1-2 drops per gallon. It doesn't take much.

Did you ever test directly from the tap? You seem to be getting some odd readings during pwc's. Are you on well water or city water?

As for what to look for...the tank with fish we want to see less than .25 ammonia and nitrIte at all times. Anything above requires a water change. The nitrAtes should also always be kept below 20 with water changes. A good, 25% weekly pwc schedule should be part of the routine once a tank is fully cycled and stocked.

For the fishless cycles (I'm sure you know), but basically you want to see the ammonia continually drop, no2 spike then drop on it's own while no3 steadily rises. Once the tank can convert 4ppm of ammonia > no2 > no3 in 24 hours...your cycled. It should read 0, 0, x number of nitrAtes in a cycled tank.
 
Yes I have learned a lot since joining these forums and I will apply this knowledge going forward.

By no filter I had no filter running in the tank just an air pump with a couple air stones. I got some goldfish from a lady that told me I don't need to use a filter and she didn't run a filter either. Now that I have learned that gold fish are a dirty fish I am surprised they have lived this long. I don't know what this lady is thinking but it has worked for her. She has a big pond that she brings the fish in from the winter but not all the fish. The pond doesn't freeze over the winter and she leaves the big fish out there. She also had a lot of gold fish in a 29 gallon tank and I would say it was over stocked but she also had a lot of live plants in there as well.

I have done a test straight from tap water but maybe later tonight, after work, I will fill up a bucket of water with some prime and test it to see what I get. We are on city water and I have been told we have the best water but I did a test straight from the tap once before and it looked like we had Ammonia and NitrAtes already in the tap water.

As for the cycling goes the two 20 gallons are making progress. Tank 1 will go from 4.0ppm ammonia to 0.25ppm in 24 hours but it wont hit 0 just yet. The nitrItes are still off the chart so I am waiting for that to drop but I think the NitrAtes are in a good range. As for tank 2 I am just starting to see the Ammonia drop. So things are on their way with that tank.
 
Did a water test in the 50 gallon tank as well as the tap water. My tap water still has some funky results.

Tank


  1. ph: right about 6.6 to 6.8
  2. nitrAtes: still between 40ppm and 80ppm
  3. nitrItes: Light blue off the chart. So I would say 0
  4. Ammonia: Still at about 0.25ppm
Tap Water
no Prime straight into a 5 gallon bucket and into the test tubes.

  1. pH 7.6 Dark Blue
  2. nitrAtes: 5.0ppm
  3. nitrItes: 5.0ppm (test it twice from 2 different faucets. Same results.)
  4. Ammonia: 0.50ppm
If you look back to page two you can see I did a water test straight out of the tap there too and put up pictures of the results. They are pretty much the same as what I got here again.

I Googled "old tank syndrome" and I am sure that is what is happening especially with the high nitrAtes. Over the summer I have just sort of let the tank go because I was under the impression that goldfish didn't need a lot of work or a water filter. I would do some water changes every week or so. I do have some algae growing and I have cleaned most of it up. So what is next do I just do like a 5 gallon water change every day until the nitrAtes go down?

I know my tap water is messed up so if there are any other chemicals I can get to help straighten it out before I put it into the tanks that would be great.
 
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