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Old 07-13-2011, 12:16 PM   #1
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Fish dying, need advice.

The best advice I was given about aquariums in particular is "You never know what'll happen." I've been having this mindset throughout my almost 3 years of having my aquarium. But the problem still persists... my fish keep dying. dozens of fishes who, in my hands, met their fate way too soon. What really blows my mind, is that I got my cousins into this hobby as well, their setup is a 10 gallon tank, yet they have 5x the fish that I have, and their all still fine and well.

In the beginning of this year, I made it a new year's resolution to take better care of my tank. My brother was kind enough to buy me 4 gouramies. 2 were Pearl gouramies and 2 were Opaline/Blue gouramies for my 20 gallon. Half the year has gone and I'm left with one of each.

I am starting to speculate if it is:
-How I clean my tank
What I most often do is change my water from around 25-30% give or take. However, I sometimes get carried away because there is more to clean than what I would expect. I then add half a bottle cap of Seachem prime conditioner. A little less than a table spoon of API aquarium salt and a dab of API proper pH 7.5.

-My filter/Heater
They're the stock filter and heater that came with the aquarium set. The heater doesn't seem like the best quality but it probably does the job. The filter has an indicator to when it needs "cleaning." But from my experience, I've been reading the forums of advice not to clean your filter because that's where all the GOOD bacteria are for the nitrate cycles and all that. Not sure if it is normal, but when I began adding the API aquarium salt. Theres these white solid-like residue that starts forming around the exteriors of my aquarium where air can escape through, such as the filters and where the wires are located. I'm thinking my filter does a really poor job of doing its purpose.

-the gravel
I'm thinking this is the culprit. All the fishes that have passed away haven't exactly all been extracted from the aquarium. There was times where there was NOTHING at all, the bodies just disappear. It led me to believe that the other fishes just ate the body but didn't exactly finish it. Every now and then when I clean my tank, I even see fins being sucked out by the siphon. I really don't know what is in my gravel anymore and I am willing to change it if I have too. The only thing holding me back as well, is that I've read in the forums that the gravel also contain GOOD bacteria. However, what about the BAD bacteria?

*Sorry for such a long post, it just really shows how desperate I am for advice.
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:27 PM   #2
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Hi, I'm sorry about your fish!

I'm still learning, so I'm in no way an expert (there are plenty of those on this site though and I'm sure they'll come along to help), but a few things come to mind when reading your post:

1. Why are you adding aquarium salt? Unless it's a brackish tank or the certain types of fish you have need it (I'm not too familiar with fish needs yet) but if it's a freshwater tank it shouldn't need salt unless you are treating an illness. So, maybe stop the salt or explain why you need it.

2. Why are you adding PH down? The fish should acclimate well to whatever your PH is naturally, unless it's extremely high or low. What is the PH of your tank normally, if you know? What is the PH of your tap water? Speaking of acclimation, when you add new fish how are you acclimating them to your tank before putting them in?

3. Do you use a test kit and if so what kind? If it's strips, they aren't accurate. If you don't use one, you need one. The API Master liquid kit is best. You should test your water parameters once a week or two for nitrites, nitrates, ammonia. If you know those levels please post them here. It could be your ammonia is spiking for whatever reason (leftover fish food or dead fish, etc) or your nitrates are too high, etc. Also the test will give you an indicator to how much water should be changed each week. In a well-cycled and established tank, your ammonia should be 0, nitrites, 0, nitrates less than <40. Then you do water changes to keep the water at those levels.

4. Do you vacuum your gravel when you water change? If not, you should. That could be the issue as well. Leftover fish food (especially if you are over-feeding) and dead rotting fish wreak havoc with your water. They can cause ammonia spikes which are deadly to your fish.

5. For the filters, true don't replace the media unless it's falling apart. But you should rinse the filter media out every couple of weeks in OLD tank water (when you are doing a water change), this will remove any gunk and particles that have built up.

If you know your water parameters post them here. And if not, get a liquid test kit ASAP. I'm sure others with more experience will chime in, too.

Good luck.
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:42 PM   #3
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If I am right about the fish you have, I think you've probably had some very aggressive behavior towards each other. That would definitely be something worth looking into whether they are compatible tank mates. Could be the explanation of why you're finding random fins in the water.

First, there's no reason to use aquarium salt unless you are treating illness, it's one of the things LFS's recommend...but serves no purpose.The pH adjuster can also be a contributing factor. Almost all fish can adapt to your natural pH, and using chemicals to adjust it can cause dramatic swings which can stress or damage your fish.

I'd stop using both of the products immediately.

A good rule of thumb is to shoot for double the filtration needed. For example, on my 46 gallon DT, I run a Fluval 405 which is rated for 100 gallons. Without proper filtration you can have a dirtier tank as well as not having efficient bio-filtration. It'd definitely be worth looking into upgrading.

A light weekly vacuuming of your gravel is normally all that is needed as far as that is concerned. It prevents buildup of leftover food which can cause excessive ammonia levels as well as leaving unsanitary conditions.


No such thing as too many questions ...do you know your full water paramaters? Ammonia, nitrIte, nitrAte and current pH from both the tank and your tap water?

*Haha! Librarygirl hit send before I did. Great info I guess you've got the same answer from 2 different sources.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:00 PM   #4
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hi...eco and library all answered the most important questions. you definitely don't need salt and ph stuff. just a waste of money JMHO.

with your fish (the gouramis), are they all male? if they are, then definitely they will kill each other. you can't put 2 or more male gouramis in a tank coz they are pretty territorial. I learned the hard way when i got 3 male dwarf gouramis. only one was left as well.

yes, please do post your water parameters. it will be very helpful.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:56 PM   #5
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@Librarygirl

1. Now that I think about it, I may have come too paranoid at one point. I believe it was a time where one of my swordtails started growing unusually large like a balloon, and another of the swordtails started getting a fungus infection on one of their eyes. So I bought aquarium salt and some fungal remedy to try and cure them, but these medications are either just a scam, or it was just too late for it to be effective anymore. The Aquarium Salt isn't the type of salt used for SALT WATER TANKS I believe, it says on the product that it is for Freshwater Fish and ADDS ESSENTIAL ELECTROLYTES AND IMPROVES GILL FUNCTION.

2. and 3. I haven't accumulated enough money to buy the whole master kit. I should of mentioned that I just finished high school :P and is currently looking for part-time. But yes, in my first year starting this hobby, I was led to believe from one of the LFS staff to buy test strips, he recommended me the same ones "they" used for "their" aquariums, I guess that is what really bought me in. However, I've learned from it. I only have an API ammonia test kit right now. The proper pH 7.5 is probably due to my paranoia of trying to prevent my fishes from dying. I researched beforehand what type of pH levels Gouramis can live in and i'm pretty sure it was around 7.0-7.5, so when I saw this product, I decided to take it because I really didn't want anymore mistakes happening.

Every time I test my ammonia, it's fine, its almost always close to zero.

I have no clue what the pH level of my tap water is.

When I get new fish, I put the bag in the aquarium to get them accustomed to the temperature, and this is where the controversy starts. I've read people who add the water when finally releasing the fish to the aquarium and the other option where you only take the fish and not add the water in the bag to the aquarium water. I've done both...I just got new fishes, small Kribensis Cichlids (believe it or not, they are community fish, I told the staff, serving me, my setup and he didn't find anything wrong with it) they were on sale and I currently don't know what to do when I finally release them. I'll probably just extract them out of the bag with my fishnet and release them in the aquarium.

4. Yes, I use that vacuum/siphon thing to clean my gravel. As I have mentioned, I even go overboard sometimes when cleaning the tank water because I get so paranoid that I didn't get all the uneaten food and dead fish particles.

5. Quick question. What do you mean by falling apart?

If someone can clarify, my filter has two medias in it. There is one that is sponge-like in form, and there is another with these black rocks in it where one side is covered with some sort of strainer/sponge. Because I've read that your suppose to be replacing something in your filter once in a while.... I don't know, someone please clarify.

Also, I don't think they sell the filter media for my current filter model in-stores anymore. That is another reason why I plan on getting a new filter

@eco23
Thanks for that advice about the filter. If ever I get enough money and I really AM considering on buying a new filter, I'm going to use that rule of thumb.

@daileene
Okay, this is why I believe the statement "You never know what'll happen."
I should of clarified that one of the Opaline Gouramis were male. The staff who got me the fish, I believe was the store owner, he told me about the aggression of Gouramies, as I have had dwarf gouramis in the past as well. So I know quite the general facts about gouramies. I came home with 3 females and 1 male. the first week was fine. No aggression whatsoever. It was like HEAVEN. Then a couple of weeks pass on. The male gourami starts being aggressive to the female opaline gourami. Then, one of the female pearl gouramis started becoming aggressive to the male gourami, while the other pearl gourami didn't do anything at all. I just established that they were making a "pecking order" as I have read in books and that it'll come to pass in less than a week. Couple of months have passed and all of a sudden, The nonaggressive pearl gourami dies... just like that. The pecking order that I thought would only last a week, kept going... The female opaline gourami has lost it's colour, and the male just keeps chasing it, while the last pearl gourami chases the male. This continues cycle goes on, until one sunday morning, I turned on the lights and the male gourami starts to act unusual. As I got back from church, he died.... and here I am, left with two female gouramies. The pearl Gourami still chases the other female but not as aggressive as the Male did.....seriously, wth.


*thanks for the help guys *
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Old 07-13-2011, 02:15 PM   #6
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That crusty stuff collecting at the open areas of the tank could be salt residue. I agree with everyone else, stop using it and save it as a medical treatment.

Don't mess with the pH unless you really know that you have a problem.

Getting a good liquid test kit will give you a lot more information and help narrow down your issues some.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:35 PM   #7
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My answer in red...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squareheads View Post
@Librarygirl

5. Quick question. What do you mean by falling apart?

If someone can clarify, my filter has two medias in it. There is one that is sponge-like in form, and there is another with these black rocks in it where one side is covered with some sort of strainer/sponge. Because I've read that your suppose to be replacing something in your filter once in a while.... I don't know, someone please clarify.

Also, I don't think they sell the filter media for my current filter model in-stores anymore. That is another reason why I plan on getting a new filter

When we say don't change the filter until it is literally falling apart, we mean exactly that. Do not believe in what the box say to change it every month. The good bacteria lives in the cartridges, so if you change it every month, you'll always going to have a mini-cycle. If the cartridges looks icky and gunky, when you do pwc, clean the cartridges with the old tank water and not in tap water so you won't lose the good bacteria.

@daileene
Okay, this is why I believe the statement "You never know what'll happen."
I should of clarified that one of the Opaline Gouramis were male. The staff who got me the fish, I believe was the store owner, he told me about the aggression of Gouramies, as I have had dwarf gouramis in the past as well. So I know quite the general facts about gouramies. I came home with 3 females and 1 male. the first week was fine. No aggression whatsoever. It was like HEAVEN. Then a couple of weeks pass on. The male gourami starts being aggressive to the female opaline gourami. Then, one of the female pearl gouramis started becoming aggressive to the male gourami, while the other pearl gourami didn't do anything at all. I just established that they were making a "pecking order" as I have read in books and that it'll come to pass in less than a week. Couple of months have passed and all of a sudden, The nonaggressive pearl gourami dies... just like that. The pecking order that I thought would only last a week, kept going... The female opaline gourami has lost it's colour, and the male just keeps chasing it, while the last pearl gourami chases the male. This continues cycle goes on, until one sunday morning, I turned on the lights and the male gourami starts to act unusual. As I got back from church, he died.... and here I am, left with two female gouramies. The pearl Gourami still chases the other female but not as aggressive as the Male did.....seriously, wth.

I am confuse now why this happened. Maybe then the pearl and the opaline are not a good combo. I am sorry this happened.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:03 PM   #8
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Female gouramis, male gouramis, whichever sex you have, will most of the time be agressive unless you are lucky and get some that are entirely peaceful (probably the one that didn't do anything). Don't listen to your LFS (local fish store), if you listen to them once you will understand why to never listen to them again. You should probably save up for the API Test Kit, it is quite accurate, also why are you adding kribs? Not to be mean but you should probably wait until you test your water and wait until everything is stable to begin adding fish again.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:09 PM   #9
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+1 with the API freshwater master test kit. it is really a good investment. it will save you a lot of problem later on.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:15 PM   #10
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Also, another reason why your fish may be dying is that you are not acclamating them properly. Best thing to do is to float them in the bag for ten minutes, open the bag, pour some tank water into the bag every fifteen minutes or so and then scoop them out of the bag with a net. Be sure that none of the water in the bag gets out.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:33 PM   #11
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Also, another reason why your fish may be dying is that you are not acclamating them properly. Best thing to do is to float them in the bag for ten minutes, open the bag, pour some tank water into the bag every fifteen minutes or so and then scoop them out of the bag with a net. Be sure that none of the water in the bag gets out.
Sorry to break in but if you test the water that they came in, and the pH is the same, do you just need to get them up to the proper temperature and then put them in your tank?
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:47 PM   #12
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No, there are still other factors that might not be the same like GH, KH, hardness, alkalinity etc.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:47 PM   #13
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Sorry to break in but if you test the water that they came in, and the pH is the same, do you just need to get them up to the proper temperature and then put them in your tank?
Then you're taking a risk of putting in god knows what into your tank. That's why I wont put LFS water in my tank
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:49 PM   #14
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Then you're taking a risk of putting in god knows what into your tank. That's why I wont put LFS water in my tank
I would just dump them and the water in a net and then put them in the tank.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:53 PM   #15
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Well, technically you can't dump water in a tank...
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:17 PM   #16
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What kind of filter do you have? Can you post the model if you know what it is (fluval, Aquaclear etc). Is it internal or external? If you do buy another filter, don't get rid of the old one yet. Run them both so that the new filter has time to build up the bacteria you need and will keep the tank from going into another cycle.

Do you have a thermometer on your tank? If not, the best one to use is an internal mercury thermometer (better than a strip) and they're cheap, less than $3 I think at a pet store. You'll probably want to make sure the temperature of your tank water is a good one for your fish. Also when you do water changes are you matching your new water temperature to your tank water (you can do this by feeling both with your hand and get them as close as possible)? If not, that could be another factor of why your fish aren't doing well.

First thing I would do is invest in a nitrate/nitrite and PH liquid kit.

How often do you do the 30% water changes? Weekly or other?
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:29 PM   #17
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Also, another reason why your fish may be dying is that you are not acclamating them properly. Best thing to do is to float them in the bag for ten minutes, open the bag, pour some tank water into the bag every fifteen minutes or so and then scoop them out of the bag with a net. Be sure that none of the water in the bag gets out.

well a lot of the times, my fish start to die out a good month and a half later. I am however, a victim of those newbie pitfalls, because I started off my tank without proper cycling with swordtails and guppies. The swordtails ended up surviving longer than the guppies.

Side note:
I've researched about guppies before and have come across information that some suppliers who sell the guppies to stores have them inbreed in their farms, causing weaker immune systems and unusual genetic disorders in their young. All the guppies I've bought from my LFS died, and I was told they are very hardy fish. I really can't trust their guppies anymore. They are always on-sale almost every week so I find it rather suspicious.

I've been planning on getting the Master Kit in a while. Every time I have the money, I end up forgetting about it though. I'll make sure to try and buy it this time. Even though it reminds me so much of Chemistry class, in which I really do hate after that semester.

But I am very curious though. The investment of the Master Kit will enable me to find out more about the parameters of my aquarium. Right? You mentioned other factors like "GH, KH, hardness, alkalinity." If it does end up being the source of the problem. How am I suppose to change the parameters to suit an aquarium that promises longevity for my fish. Will there be more money needed to buy some more water treatment products in order to change the parameters? Because from how I see it. Getting the Master Kit is just solving half the problems. All I'm doing is finding the variables and not the solution. Although, I'm not saying it is a bad thing. I just need to know what I'm getting into with all your advice

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
@librarygirl
The filter model that I have is the Elite Hush 20; it is an external filter. When I do get a new filter, I don't think I can run them both at the same time unless I remove the lid of the aquarium. I've browsed through my LFS and I'm almost CERTAIN that they don't have any of the Elite brand products, unless I haven't looked hard enough. They change their inventory every year or so. There are new products every time I visit.

The aquarium came with a temperature strip and once in a while I use a thermometer (that's suppposed to be used for cooking) to measure the temperature in the aquarium. As far as I'm concerned, these fishes aren't too picky about the temperature.

Yes, I do try to match the temperature of the water in the tank, and the water I put in.

I am guilty for sometimes forgetting to do the water change consistently. Many of those times were usually those weeks that pass by so fast I forget about my fish . But I have been consistent the past couple of months...except when it was exams...

Also, another controversy I have come across was the amount of water change your supposed to do, and how frequently. The LFS that I usually go to and all the information I have read in the internet and some books i have read say 30% water change. Although, there was this one time where I went to another branch of my LFS to a neighbouring city. The store owner told me 15% water change and I can't recall if he said everyday or every half a week.... If someone can clarify, I think I read somewhere that if you think one of your fishes is sick, that you do water changes everyday or something like that....




thanks again for the advice guys! much appreciated. I see myself as the kind of guy who has more confidence asking in the internet rather than in person. I do get better results when I take advice from forums so I really really do appreciate this.
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:35 PM   #18
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Don't try to change the levels of GH KH alkalinity hardness and pH. It is better to keep them stable than to change them for the fish. Unless your water levels are at extreme lows or highs, don't change or add anything. The best thing to do right now is 40% PWC and trying your best to lower ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:35 PM   #19
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+1 with bruinsbro...just do 40%-50%. that will do it.
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Old 07-14-2011, 05:03 AM   #20
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Instead of buying more fish, use that money to buy the API test kit. You'll need to test ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. These parameters must be in order or fish will die.

Be sure to actually physically change the water - about 20% per week.

Just my 2 cents.
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