Fish In Cycling advice and Log (Frustrations)

[Stargaze]

Hey all, Stargaze here again.

I figured I would put in an update with my new 37 gallon tank. After having jumped into the deep end without learning how to swim first, I had been misled into doing a fish-in cycle. >_<

I currently have 8 fish in my tank right now. 5 Giant Danio's, and 3 Botia Kubotai.
My first 3 Giant Danios and first Kubotai were added on the 29th of September; its now about 5 days since I added two more Danios, and two more Kubotai (to help make the fish less nervous.) I'm not sure if this was a wise choice or not. But Let it be known all future fish are on hold till I make it through this cycle.

Today is day 16 of my cycle...

Just took my water test this morning with my API test kit. Ammonia was through the roof at about 4ppm. My nitrites are between 0ppm and .25ppm. The color was right in between, so I'm not sure what to mark that as. (But yay nitrates! Right?)
No Nitrates at all. I immediately did a 25-30% water change. I think this is my second water change within 7 days. ._. Is this terribly, horribly bad? Am I doing something wrong by changing the water? I do not want my ammonia super high, but how high do I have to "let it rest" for bacteria to start growing?

Just did a post-water change ammonia test, I want to say my ammonia is about 2ppm. Should I do another water change tomorrow morning to get that ammonia even lower?

My water is occasionally cloudy, right now I would say that there is only a little bit of cloudiness. I cant tell if this is from bacteria, or if its just a dirty tank. (I have cut back significantly on how much food I've been feeding lately. My fish are fed twice a day however. Is this too often? My Danio's always appear to be hungry, and were even nibbling at my arm earlier when I was trying to feed one of my Kubotai!)

Help or feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm very worried, and hoping that at some point things will level out. ._.

 

[eco23]

You've got to get the ammonia down ASAP. The goal should be at or below .25ppm at all times. There's no such thing as too many water changes as long as you are dechlorinating and temperature matching the water. Water changes will NOT interfere with your cycle, and are mandatory to keep your fish alive during the process. Test every day and change however much water is necessary to keep the toxins as low as possible.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/artic...g-but-I-already-have-fish-What-now/Page2.html

 

[librarygirl]

I agree, MORE water changes. They are never bad, they'll help the fish survive. You want to get ammonia down under .25 and keep it there at all times; same with nitrite. With ammonia at 2 (and nitrite at .25) you'll need to do three 50% water changes back-to-back. The first one will get ammonia down to 1, but that's still toxic. The second will get it down to .5, which is still pretty hard on the fish. The last will get it down to .25 (which is still borderline; maybe do a larger change for the last one). Then test the water daily and any time ammonia and/or nitrite are over .25 do a water change to get them down.

If this is the first time you're seeing nitrite, that phase is just starting. Nitrites spike fast, so you'll need to test the water twice daily and be ready to do water changes as needed to keep those levels down. This may mean more than one water change per day. Using a good dechlorinator like Prime will help detoxify the ammonia/nitrite between water changes (but not to be used in place of water changes).

 

[Rokuzachi]

When you start seeing nitrites, you can add some aquarium salt to help the fish deal with it in addition to your water changes. From what I understand, if there's enough chloride it will bond to the fish's blood rather than the nitrite. It's not a cure but it can help your fish cope with its presence. Of course, if you decide to do this, research your fish and make sure they are ok with salt.

You can also use Seachem Prime in large amounts to temporarily detoxify ammonia and nitrite if you feel for whatever reason that you'd be unable to change enough water to reduce their presence.

 

[Stargaze]

Thank you all for the responses. I've been doing water changes to help keep that ammonia down. I'm currently waiting for my Danio's to quit feeding, as its time for another water change.

My Nitrates and Nitrites have spiked! I now know that my fish tank is cycling, and I need to get those levels down pronto! Wish me luck!

*Edit* I've bought Prime, and have been -very- pleased with how little it takes to de-chlorinate my water. Thank you all for the suggestion! The last Dechlorinator I was using was Aqueon, and I went through that bottle in almost a month.

I don't think Aquarium salt is good for my Botia however :\ as they live in very pure river water. So I'll be holding off on that and just crossing my fingers that they will pull through okay.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Best of luck on your journey! As stated above water changes are the key; do your best to match temperature and pH of the tank water with the aquarium water so you don't shock the fish with the massive water changes.

 

[Johny]

Good Luck! lol

One last tidbit I would add: make sure you are cleaning your tank well! We just did a fish in cycle not too long ago. We have other tanks, and so I was able to seed the new filter with a significant amount of old filter material, which greatly sped up the process. When we got to the point where nitrites were not showing up at all and we consistently had nitrates at about 10 ppm, we still had ammonia showing up. It was never very much, around .25 ppm, and I think maybe twice hit .5 ppm. It was really frustrating to know that the cycle was converting ammonia all the way to nitrates, but ammonia was still present. The tank is a pretty heavily planted 10 gallon with drift wood and rocks as well. My wife did a deep cleaning and found one corner, behind the drift wood, behind some plants, where a little bit of food and poop had been missed during the last water change. As soon as she got it out, no more ammonia. We had probably finished out cycle a week prior, but still had ammonia because I missed some food and poop in a hard to get to corner.

long story short: it doesn't take much fish food or poop to add to the ammonia levels in a cycling tank. Keeping those hard to get to places clean will help you maintain your ammonia levels down.

Hope this helps. And again, good luck!

 

[eco23]

Good point Johnny. There's a misconception that cleaning the substrate will interfere with your cycle, but the effects would be minimal if at all. The organic debris is a major contributor to toxin levels, and keeping the substrate pristine can be a great help. This thought just popped into my mind...but removing substrate and keeping a bare bottom tank in an emergency situation until cycled may be an idea worth exploring. I keep my QT's bare bottom, and it works great. Food goes in, poop comes out, vacuum sucks it up. I'm not saying to pull out your substrate, but it's something I may experiment with.

 

[Stargaze]

Fascinating Thank you both for the input! Yesterday I did another large water change due to my nitrites/trates spiking to 2.0 and 20ppm. I'm only able to do about one a day on my work days, due to how much time it takes. :\ So I've been doing larger amounts of water to try and compensate. I think saying about 65-75% of my water is being changed each time is a safe estimate. I've been keeping the temperature as close as possible, and each bucket gets a small pour of Prime and sits for a few minutes before being added to my tank.

I was quite pleased to see these parameters this morning:

Ammonia- 0-.25ppm
Nitrites- 0ppm
Nitrates- about 5.0 (still a bit higher than I would like)

Not finished cycling yet, but I am very happy since those are significantly lower than other tests.

On a side note, I'm on the hunt for Green tiger barbs to add to my tank after my tank is cycled.
I did find another store that is all for tropical fish. On Tuesdays they are buy one get one free! Their store has some very mixed reviews though, so going to keep calling around and see who else carries a large variety of fish. I like to know a store has a good return policy in case their stock is bad. :\

 

[librarygirl]

Glad to see nitrites came down; allowing nitrites to get to 2 can be detrimental to fish so try to stay on top of the pwc. Did nitrites come down on their own or is that reading after a large pwc? If they are at 0 on their own you may be cycled. Just keep testing to be sure. The ammonia should be 0 by now I would think; it can be difficult to determine between 0 and .25 on the test kit. I'd suggest testing some spring water and then comparing it to the ammonia test of the tank water; if they match, the tank has 0 ammonia. If they don't, the tank has some ammonia and you should do a 50% pwc. You're doing well.

 

[Stargaze]

Thank you I had gone to another LFS Yesterday after hearing they had green tiger barbs. I was very disheartened when he told me that water changes were killing my bacteria and slowing down my cycling process.

He pretty much told me most people buy feeders, and leave them in the tank for a month until it balances out naturally; and that your water is meant to get toxic and you should leave it alone. After doing a water test he said my water was just like tap water. He wrote the stats down on a card and told me to come back in a week. If only the nitrates are visible, then my tank is cycled.
I have to say, I liked the store, didn't like the advice. :\ Maybe its because I'm a little more humane and such.

Update on my stats:
Ammonia: 0-.25ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: Seems to be 5-10ppm (its lighter, but seems to be a more vivid orange than the 5. Not sure if that is normal?

Test of my tap water's ammonia is about the same. We don't use spring water, but I assume everything is fine?
If I keep getting the same results the next few days, how many days should I wait before considering my tank cycled?

And before I get new fish, should I give my tank a gravel vac, just to be sure of no additional ammonia spikes?

I'm really hoping my tank is cycled.

 

[librarygirl]

Nitrites came down to 0 on their own or is that after a water change? Are those your test numbers or the LFS? Did the store use strips? If they're 0 on their own and the test was taken with a good liquid kit I'd say you may just be cycled!

As for the ammonia, it's probably 0 (or it should be). It's hard telling between 0 and .25 on the API test. To be sure, you could test some spring water and compare it to the tank's ammonia test tube. If they match, the tank has 0 ammonia. Just to make sure it's really 0 and there's nothing funny going on.

I'd test it another 2-3 days just to make sure there aren't any more spikes. If not, then you can add more fish slowly (1-3 at a time depending on the fish and test water for a week after each addition, wait 2 weeks between adding new fish).

It's normal for nitrates to go up. Do you have any live plants in the tank? They're fine anyway. They shouldn't rise too fast once the tank is cycled even with fish in it unless you grossly overstock it. Your weekly maintenance water change (I usually advise either one 50% pwc per week or two 20-30% pwc per week for good maintenance along with a gravel vacuum every week or two) will keep nitrates down and help to replenish the water of nutrients that the fish use up.

Yes you can do another vac if you want to.

I hate the advice LFS give out in terms of cycling. They want to sell fish, so I guess it's understandable. I've had LFS people tell me fishless cycling will never work, use some "insignificant fish" to cycle the tank, etc. Makes me mad; I just walk out and don't buy anything.

Good luck. You did a great job.

 

[Stargaze]

Thank you again!

Currently there are no live plants in the tank. Only live things are 5 Giant Danio's and 3 Botia Kubotai thankfully! Everyone is pulling through fine and I've had no sick fish or casualties.

Those tests are from both myself and the LFS. (The LFS said I had 10PPM for Nitrates yesterday. But it's right between the two. I would even assume it was 7ppm or something.) Both myself and the LFS are using the API master test kit.

Two days ago I did a large PWC because my Nitrates/ites were spiked very high. I wanted to get those levels safe so I did one 50-65% PWC. The LFS said this was a huge mistake because it was during a spike and I should have left it alone. But all the online guides for fish-in cycling seem to support changing during a spike. But for two days now I've showed 0-low ammonia and nitrites, and 5-10ppm for nitrates.

 

[librarygirl]

Thank you again!

Currently there are no live plants in the tank. Only live things are 5 Giant Danio's and 3 Botia Kubotai thankfully! Everyone is pulling through fine and I've had no sick fish or casualties.

Those tests are from both myself and the LFS. (The LFS said I had 10PPM for Nitrates yesterday. But it's right between the two. I would even assume it was 7ppm or something.) Both myself and the LFS are using the API master test kit.

Two days ago I did a large PWC because my Nitrates/ites were spiked very high. I wanted to get those levels safe so I did one 50-65% PWC. The LFS said this was a huge mistake because it was during a spike and I should have left it alone. But all the online guides for fish-in cycling seem to support changing during a spike. But for two days now I've showed 0-low ammonia and nitrites, and 5-10ppm for nitrates.

You did well with changing the water. It's a myth that water changes can hinder cycling and most fish/pet stores still say not to do water changes even with fish in the tank. Makes me mad. Hopefully the tank is cycled. I'd keep testing daily though just to make sure and be ready to do a pwc if anything spikes.

 

[Stargaze]

I would have to agree. It makes me even more upset when everyone makes it sound like the fish are just disposable. They didn't want to listen to what I had to say about the water changes; But if I can save a fish's life and cause less stress with 2-3 more weeks of PWC's, isn't that so much more worth it? I at least think so!

I don't care if a fish is with $1 or $500; you should take just as much care with them.

 

[Stargaze]

Log for 10-27-11

Ammonia is .25 today
Nitrites- .25
Nitrate- 5.0

Rise in Nitrites tells me I'm not cycled but at least I'm getting there!

 

[librarygirl]

Log for 10-27-11

Ammonia is .25 today
Nitrites- .25
Nitrate- 5.0

Rise in Nitrites tells me I'm not cycled but at least I'm getting there!

It'll happen eventually. Hopefully you're close. I'd do another 50% water change to get both ammonia and nitrite lower. You're doing well; I'm sure your fish appreciate it.

 

[Stargaze]

Thank you for all the help My test had the same levels today. I did a 50% again, and my finger are crossed that this time the levels will balance out for good. I had no idea the process would be so long for tank cycling! But watching my fish play with eachother and swimming around happily makes it worth it.

My loaches have been more active lately and less shy. I see them out all the time, day or night! Since I know it's getting close now I suppose I should ask what others thing would be a good amount of fish for my size tank?

My 37 gallon is rectangular, and is almost as tall as it is long. (Though I have to say its a bit bigger length wise.)

I know Giant danios will reach around 4" full grown, and have 5 of them.

My Botia Kubotai will be between 4" and 6" I have 3, though I have heard they are very slow growers. My co worker has had one for almost a year and it is barley bigger than my own.

I would like to add the three color variations of Tiger barbs: Green, Regular, and Albino. I know they get to be about 3" full size. Being schooling fish, I know I need larger numbers for them to feel more secure? But what is safe enough to add without overstocking? Does anyone have experience with the different color variations cohabiting with one another? Do they school together?

Would it be bad to add 1 single Rainbow Shark? I know they can be territorial which is what I'm worried about with my Kubotai. I like this fish a lot, but I don't want to cause any problems in my tank. I also know they can get large, but I don't know how fast they grow. I am willing to buy a larger tank in the future; but it may have to be withing 1 or 2 years. Would a shark outgrow this tank in that time frame?

Thank you again