Fishes Cycling w/ Plants

[JoelCouch]

Trusting what I thought was a good LFS (local being 3 hours from my house), I started a tank with ADA Super Sand, AD Amazonian Soil, couple pieces of driftwood and a bunch of plants. He instructed me to light the tank for 8 hours a day, daily water changes for a week, every other day for a couple weeks, then once a week thereafter. His suggestion was that it will take a month before I am ready to add fish.

I am a very patient person, I am ok with whatever the timeline is with each stage of this process.

I'm about a week and a half into this process and am having an increasing amount of algae in the tank. Naturally I research how to handle this. This is when I start to learn that it is not recommended to have a planted tank while trying to do a fishless cycle.

Totally makes sense to me... now. However, I have a tank full of plants. What do I do with those plants while the tank completes cycling? Or is there another option?

Some of the plants I have require a fair amount of light, or I would just setup a bucket and go down and grab a cheap filter.

At any rate, this is where I am at. What I'd like to know is where to go from here. I would hate to lose all those plants (kind of a pricey lesson), however, I just want to end up with the results of a good clean and properly cycled tank. If that means tossing the plants and starting over, then so be it. Otherwise, I'm up for better suggestions (I'm sure there are some options).

 

[Aliray]

I started my 3 ten gal tanks with plants and three sets of fish and Tetra Safe Start. The first tank with six neon tetras, the next with a male betta and the third with 5 harlequin rasboras. There was no loss of life and I still have all the original fish. Decide on the stocking that you want and just pick up a few depending on the size of the tank and the size of the fish. Bring them home and while they are coming up to temp. add the whole bottle of Tetra Safe Start appropriate for the size of the tank. Do nothing except feed and head counts and at the end of 2 weeks you should be cycled to the bioload of the fish. Then every week or two add another 2 or 3 fish till stocked. Test your water first if you have been cycling with ammonia? But if it tests okay you should be good to go. Test ammonia, nitrites and nitrate before putting them in. Alison

 

[Fresh2o]

You can have plants in the tank while doing a fishless cycle. They will actually consume some of the nitrogenous compounds.
What is your goal with this tank? Low light, low tech? High light, high tech? Somewhere in the middle? You've got great substrate in there.
What is the size of the tank?
What kind of lighting are you using?
Do you have a carbon source (pressurized or DIY CO2, excel, API CO2 booster, glutaraldehyde)?
How much ammonia are you adding to the tank and how often?
What test kit are you using and how often are you testing?
What are you plans for fertilization?
The most important factor in this is the lighting. It will influence the need for ferts and carbon. A proper balance of lighting, ferts, and carbon is key to good plant growth and minimal algae.


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[JoelCouch]

My goal with the tank is to have a nice looking tank with healthy plants and fish. High tech, low tech... whatever it takes I'd imagine somewhere in the middle but I honestly have no idea how to gauge that.

My tank is 20 gallons

My lighting has no name on it. It is upgraded lighting.

Actual Light Detail at front of tank:
PAR: 1.4
LUX 52.3
Kelvin tends to run around 6K

I can also post spectrographs if that would help.

I do have a CO2 injector. I've been running about 1 bubble per second. However, I turned it off yesterday and haven't run it for a day. I have an ADA Drop Checker which was indicating that I had too much CO2 in the water. However, it may not be getting good readings currently due to the wonky water condition.

I was told I did not need to add ammonia to the water with the substrate combo I am using. My ammonia levels seem to stay pretty high, even with routine water changes.
I am using a Seneye which started giving reliable data yesterday. I was told I didn't really need to fuss over the numbers for the first month. I also have an API Freshwater Master Test Kit that I can test with.

I was also told that I would not need to fertilize based on the substrate I'm using. However, I am starting to second guess everything I was told (I think you can see why). I am open to learning appropriate methods to fertilizing.

I am completely open to learning and if there is something in my setup that needs to be replaced with something different, I am open to that as well. I wouldn't say price is no object but this hobbies hasn't tapped me out, yet. I am prepared for a certain amount of failure as I learn and recognize that learning on a small tank will be a little tougher. However, I get to watch my tank all day where it is at which is the point of getting it.

If I haven't answered any of your questions adequately, please feel free to ask more. Also, feel free to refer me to other resources of information. I have no problem doing research.

Total side note here... when I first started this little journey I was down at the LFS and (long story short) bought a 6 Gal Edge by Fluval. When I got home I did a little research and found that they made a 12 Gal of the same dimensions just taller, so I ordered that. Then I started (resumed from over 20 years ago) research on the methods of Amano. Which is when I learned about the ADA line of products. I looked for a local reseller of his products, there was one three hours away. This is where I bought my 20 gallon, light, CO2 and substrate along with the plants and advice. So, yes, I have three tanks now. Each of which are set up a bit different. Currently, this is the only tank we're having "trouble" with (I use that term loosely because I'm still learning).

 

[JoelCouch]

Here is a screenshot of my Seneye dashboard. It'll give a little information... Ok, guess you can't actually read it. I'll see what I can do to make it legible.

 

[Fresh2o]

Yes, the substrate will leach ammonia. How much? Not sure. There are those on this forum with ADA product experience. I don't think the LFS steered you wrong. You've got a nice tank and substrate to work with. It just that there are different ways to reach your goal.
The substrate will provide fertilization at the root level but for stem plants you should provide a fertilizer for the water column. There are several over the counter liquid ferts as well as dry ferts (you mix these yourself). The advantage of the latter is that you can have better control on the components in the mix. For instance, additional phosphate is often used to counter green spot algae. Or if your bioload is providing a decent amount of nitrate, then you can reduce or eliminate that from the mix. Two dry fert methods are Estimative Index (EI) and PPS-Pro. These are available through GreenLeaf Aquatics.
I would continue with the addition of CO2. This will help the plants grow and, in turn, help control the algae.
You could try reducing the light duration to 5-6 hours per day to help discourage algae growth.
I am not familiar with the lighting you have described.
There are those with much more plant experience than myself and hopefully they will chime in.


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[JoelCouch]

You think putting an algae eater in the tank now is a bad idea? I assume that no fish would really do well in the current state of things.

 

[Aliray]

Most of them require established tanks . I would not start with any of those. Maybe a couple of netrite snails or mystery snails . What kind of fish are you wanting to end up with?.....Alison

 

[JoelCouch]

While I admit that this list has changed as I learn more. Right now I like this list and as long as I don't find any problems with it, this is what I'm thinking of going with.

10 - Celestial Pearl Danio (love these, I consider these a must)

8 - Forktail Blue Eye Rainbowfish (This was recommended, I really like these but are larger than I was shooting for, so this one may change around if I find a good replacement)

10 - Rili Shrimp - Blue (definitely want shrimp, I've heard good things about Neo's and Rili specifically)

1 - Otocinclus (once the tank is established)

I have a separate thread on my fish selection, love the topic and invite you to join me there.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/20-gallon-stocking-list-330569.html

 

[Fresh2o]

Is hold off on putting anything in there while the ammonia is up. How much ammonia are you currently reading?
The fish selection sounds good. Tried to go to the link and I got a "no post" message. I would aim for 3-5 Otos. The furcatas are gorgeous. I saw them for the first time at the LFS a few weeks ago and I'm hooked. A little expensive ($11 a piece) but I get a 20% discount off that because I donate plants.


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[JoelCouch]

Ok, cool. I have no problem holding off on the fish for now.

Bumping up the Oto's sounds good (thought I read somewhere that I should only use one in a 20 gallon... but I don't remember where).

My last ammonia readings are as follows:

Free Ammonia (ppm)
Today at 11:19am 0.021 (considered stable currently, early this morning it was 0.035)

NH4
Today at 10:16am 399.13 (currently trending up, early this morning it was 250)

I get readings about every half hour, so I can go back and see the fluctuation over time. This data started yesterday (Monday, 2/16/2015).

Does that help, or are you used to seeing something different in relation to ammonia?

 

[Fresh2o]

Otos are social (or do better in numbers) from what I've read from oto owners here.
This is ammonia from the substrate only? The reason I ask is that with most fishless cycles, an ammonia of 2-4 ppm is often recommended. When the filter can process that much ammonia in 24 hours along with a zero nitrite reading, then the fishless cycle is considered complete.


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[JoelCouch]

I like having a group of otos for just that reason.

From what you are saying and what I've been told and read the ammonia levels I'm seeing are normal. I also just did a manual test using a liquid test kit. This confirmed an ammonia level somewhere between 2 & 4. Also confirmed nitrite and nitrate activity.