fishless cycle experiment

[Guest]

got this idea from reading cycling posts, so i am going to do a fishless cycle starting today and see how it turns out.

8/23/06
filled my empty 5 gal hospital tank with de-chlored water. put in a brand new, out of the box whisper hob filter. went to the store and got ammonia with the active ingrediant ammonium hydroxide, nothing else. makes no bubbles when i shake it up. i added 5 drops to the tank.

i have extra floss in one of the hob's on my main tank that is thoroughly cycled, so i am going to cut some out and add it to the hob on the cycling tank. the only things in the tank are gravel, the filter, and an unused heater. tomorrow i will take water tests to keep a record.

the goal is to see how long it takes and what kind of problems i may run into, and to compare fishless cycling to cycling with fish(which is the only way i have ever cycled tanks).

 

[SCFatz]

the goal is to see how long it takes and what kind of problems i may run into, and to compare fishless cycling to cycling with fish(which is the only way i have ever cycled tanks)

My bet is you will amazed at just how fast it is...and there really are no problems to run into.I applaud you effort to gain a better understanding.Keep the posts coming though for those who will be considering this for the first time.

I like the red+

 

[7Enigma]

Well the first problem you are going to find (if you water is relatively unbuffered) is that your pH will be high. Ammonium hydroxide is a base. It will raise the pH of the tank considerably if a good amount is added in a fishless cycle without other buffers present.

What is your KH? What is the pH of the tank before and after adding in the ammonia? I prefer to cycle with Ammonium sulfate or ammonium chloride since these will not change the pH drastically.

Also what is the ppm of ammonia your reading after adding those 5 drops?

I think if your water is moderately hard you should be fine though...

 

[Guest]

day 2.
8/24/06

i tested the water using aquarium pharmecuticals liquid test kits for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, the results are;
ammonia .50
nitrite ---- -0
nitrate ---- 0

i added 3 more drops of ammonia to the tank. yesterday i added the filter floss from the established tank to the filter. i did not fill the tank to the top with water so the over spill from the hob should agitate the water surface to add oxygen for the bacteria to grow and i should not need to add an airstone. this is all i am going to do and will leave the tank alone until tomorrow.

 

[7Enigma]

Any pH or KH data?

 

[JRagg]

I used ammonium hydroxide and did not see any pH issues when cycling my tank. My dKH was 3 at the time.

 

[Guest]

day 3
8/25/06

morning water test results;
ammonia-----.7(approx +-)
nitrites--------.25
nitrates--------0

surprised and pleased that nitrites showed up on day 3. the jump start of media from the cycled tank must be giving the tank a boost. added 2 drops of ammonia to the tank. out of curiosity, i tested the ph which did test high at +-8. however, ph or kh is not of great concern at this time because this experiment does not involve live fish and in the spirit of keeping this as simple as possible, only basic and minimal tests are needed to see if the tank is actualy cycling. during this stage, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests are the most important factors to watch.

after the cycle is complete, a large water change will be done. before adding any fish, ph will be tested again and hold a higher priority. it is good thing pointing out that cycling with ammonium sulfate or ammonium chloride has less effect on ph( i was not aware of this), but in the interest of an average person fishless cycling a tank for the first time(such as myself), it is likely they will go to the store and get a bottle of clear ammonia off the shelf, shake it to check for bubbles, and take what they can get(like i did). hopefuly they will check for added ingrediants and may discover that the label will state that 'surfactants' were added and avoid this brand or any other that is scented or colored.

edit:
this information comes from a combination of other posts, sites, and various instructions and comments on fishless cycling.

 

[Guest]

day 4
8/26/06

morning tests;
ammonia-----1
nitrites-------.7+-
nitrates------0...--6+-

added 2 drops ammonia to the tank.

edit:
i read the nitrate test too soon. showing +-6(approx).

 

[7Enigma]

out of curiosity, i tested the ph which did test high at +-8. however, ph or kh is not of great concern at this time because this experiment does not involve live fish and in the spirit of keeping this as simple as possible, only basic and minimal tests are needed to see if the tank is actualy cycling. during this stage, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests are the most important factors to watch.

The main reason why I mentioned the pH is that the nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria have an optimal growth rate at pH 7.3-7.5. Over pH 8 they begin to slow their growth. The ammonia to nitrIte bacteria however actually prefer the pH 7.8-8.0 range for optimal growth so you might see a very quick reduction in ammonia, and then a slower conversion of nitrIte to nitrAte. This normally happens to some degree since the ammonia to nitrIte bacteria have a quicker multiplication rate.

Looks like its going good so far.

 

[Guest]

7enigma

what would you recommend adjusting the ph level to for maximum cycling? i am beginning to see the importance of the ph factor and from the test i did yesterday, the ph is high.

 

[7Enigma]

Well by adjusting the pH level, we need to first think what we should use to affect the pH. I'm not a fan of adding chemicals to LOWER the pH, raising the pH is really easy and safe with baking soda.

I would rather have you find some ammonia source that is complexed with either sulfate or chloride. Then you could just do a water change to get the pH back down and continue dosing with those.

If you can't find those, I would continue to monitor the pH and if it gets above 8.5 or so I would suggest a large water change and then redose with ammonia.

 

[Guest]

ok. going to the store today and will look for sulfate or chloride, i should be able to find some. will get the ph corrected today.

 

[7Enigma]

ok. going to the store today and will look for sulfate or chloride, i should be able to find some. will get the ph corrected today.

I mean ammonium chloride or ammonium sulfate, not just sulfate or chloride!

 

[Guest]

this is a really good post, thank you!

 

[Guest]

I mean ammonium chloride or ammonium sulfate, not just sulfate or chloride!

i understood, (i should have typed out the whole words). i went to 3 stores and could only find ammonia with surfactants and hydroxide. so for today i will follow your other advice and do a large water change and redose. the ph tested at well over 8, so i am changing the water now.

and yw fishypeanut.

 

[7Enigma]

OK, just making sure. For anyone else reading this then, at least it will clear up a possible misunderstanding.

I'm glad your doing the PWC, just try to stir up as little substrate as possible and try not to touch the glass. You really will lose only a small amount of bacteria from the water.

What you can do once the new water has been put in, ammonia has been added, and let the tank sit and run for an hour, would be to take your filter media and squeeze it around the tank.

You'll know if you've got a good bit of bacteria present since the water will cloud up.

This will help to repopulate other areas of the filter media/tank/substrate/decorations.

And check the pH after the water change and ammonia addition and post it in here. It should not be as high as before the water change, but will still probably be over 7.4.

 

[Guest]

ok, the water change is done. the ph tested about 7.3 before the ammonia, and around 7.6 after the ammonia addition. the ammonia tested at close to .5 after adding four drops to the tank. i squeezed the filter around the tank, but it did not get cloudy, there is some white 'dust' swirling around, more than before. the filter is turning from white to light brown on both sides and has a slight pond kind of odor.

 

[7Enigma]

That's what you want! Your well on your way now. I'd only add ammonia now when you get below 0.5ppm. You want to add the least amount of ammonia possible to keep the pH from going up so quickly.

 

[Guest]

day 5
8/27/06

morning water tests(after 5 minutes);
ammo------.25
nitrites-----.5
nitrates----5
ph---------8

on day 4, i might have misread the nitrate test by letting it sit too long. the ph seems to have gone up. ammo is at .25, so i added two drops to the tank, but i think ph will be a problem. maybe i need a way to lower ph naturaly. the white 'dust' seems to have cleared up and is gone. i think this is bad? im thinking i want to see a cloudy tank with bacteria running rampant.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Just remember that testing nitrates won't be accurate when you have nitrites, as they can give you false positives, and you may have almost no nitrate.