fishless cycling-any help appreciated

[bsualum]

I am a new aquarium owner and started a fishless cycle on a 25 gal tank 4 (yes 4) weeks ago today. I did not have any filter medium from an established tank to add. I treated the water with Aqueon water conditioner and used ammonia from local hardware store (I called the company directly to be certain there were no additives and was told ammonia hydrox and water only). Added ammonia to reach 4 ppm, using API test kit. Have temp in tank turned up. NOTHING has happened, ammonia still reads right at 4ppm, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates. Checked my tap water, no ammonia.
I may be able to get some established filter media this weekend, should I add it now or start all over. I am very discouraged. What should I do?
Thank you in advance.

 

[jlk]

Hi and welcome!!! We will try to figure this out! Whats the ph of your tank & your tap? Do you have city water? If so, do you know if its treated with chlorine or chloramines? What type of filter do you have & what type of media? Do you have any extra aeration in your tank or is the water level low so the filter splashes? Lets start with these questions & we can go from here!

 

[bsualum]

Thank you so much for your reply and assistance. Tank pH=8.4; Tap pH=7.0
I have city water, not sure about chlorine or chloramines, I can find out tomorrow.Filter is Aqueon power filter, using the included cartridge. I have water level low so splashing occurs. A friend has offered me an air pump which I can get on Friday.

 

[jlk]

Thanks for the information! There's quite difference between your tap & tank. Can you set aside some tap water water overnight with a bubbler/air stone? If you don't have an extra, no big deal- just give the water a good stir when you remember to. Let's see how it looks tomorrow for ph.

Since you have city water, your water will have either chlorine or chloramines as disinfectant. Many municipalities have their water reports online if you do some searching. It's possible your levels may be higher than what a typical water conditioner can handle. We need to rule things in or out to try & figure out what's happening here.

 

[ErinMcG]

I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it can sometimes take up to 6 weeks for things to start to happen. It's possible that something has stalled things for you (I think that's what jlk is trying to determine), but it may just be slow. It took me a full 5 weeks to see nitrites appear in my fishless cycle.

Good luck!

 

[Andy Sager]

Waiting for nitrites....

Thank you so much for your reply and assistance. Tank pH=8.4; Tap pH=7.0
I have city water, not sure about chlorine or chloramines, I can find out tomorrow.Filter is Aqueon power filter, using the included cartridge. I have water level low so splashing occurs. A friend has offered me an air pump which I can get on Friday.

The first thing to determine is why your tank PH is so much higher than your tap water. Something calcium based is probably part of the decorations (i.e. shells or coral or coral rocks) is my guess. This is not a problem unless you are getting wild fish that are used to a lower PH in their natural habitat. You'll want to keep this in mind as you start stocking your tank.

That being said, under higher PH it usually takes longer for the nitrification cycle to get going so patience here is key. In layman's terms, when you are "cycling" a tank, you are polluting the water and letting the natural bacterias clean it up. Bacteria work on their own schedule so you just have to wait. In any eco system, ( an aquarium is an eco system) nature rules. It's why polluted waters, when left alone for a while, always become clean again in time. At this point, I would stop adding any more ammonia and continue to check your nitrites every other day or so. Once you see them start to rise, you should test regularly to see them fall. Once they reach 0 again, you can start to add fish.

Hope this helps...

 

[Kingzilla]

Have temp in tank turned up.

what is the temperature in the tank?

 

[bsualum]

Thanks so much for helping me everyone! I sat out some tap water with an air stone and will check it in several hours and report back. The tank temperature reads 84. I read somewhere online to take some of your gravel out and pour white vinegar on it and if it bubbles that could be contributing to the high pH. Not sure if this is accurate or not, but I did try it and no bubbles. I was planning on having neon tetras in my tank, but can change that plan if necessary. Thanks again.

 

[Andy Sager]

Basic chemistry

Thanks so much for helping me everyone! I sat out some tap water with an air stone and will check it in several hours and report back. The tank temperature reads 84. I read somewhere online to take some of your gravel out and pour white vinegar on it and if it bubbles that could be contributing to the high pH. Not sure if this is accurate or not, but I did try it and no bubbles. I was planning on having neon tetras in my tank, but can change that plan if necessary. Thanks again.

Before you make yourself crazy, the gravel you use will only raise the PH if you are using a calcium based gravel. Most decorative gravels for freshwater tanks are not calcium based and have little effect on the PH of the water. The question then is "Where did you get the gravel and did it say anything on the package about it "stabilizing" the ph?"
(Maybe if you attach a picture of your tank we may be able to see something that shouldn't be in the tank.)

Once your tank cycles, if the neons you get are wild, they will need a lower ph. If they are tank raised (most likely from the far east) you will need to match the PH in the store that you bought them from. Keep all these things in mind as you go forward. But for now, be patient.

 

[bsualum]

I purchased the gravel from local PetSmart store, did not save the package that it came in. In the tank I have the gravel, a few clear decorative stones to simulate the look of sea glass, some artificial plants and one decoration that is made to look like a piece of wood. I believe the brand of the aquarium gravel was Top Fin. Appreciate your input.

 

[jlk]

In general, the stuff from Petsmart is fine. The only gravel they sell thats a bit questionable is the neon-colored stuff because of the coating on the rocks but even this shouldnt really have an effect on ph. Lets how see how your tap ph looks later on & we have a better idea if its your tap thats actually this high after gassing out. Ammonia is very, very alkaline- this factors into your ph as well especially if theres any chance you over dosed the ammonia. Let us know how things look later on!

 

[Andy Sager]

With all due respect...

Not to disagree but ammonia can also be acidic if combined with other products. For example, ammonia chloride is in the 5.o range depending on the concentration and the ammonia produced by fish in the excretions is also acidic. (This is one of the problems with fishless cycles, it's not as natural as it sounds.) One way to know if the ammonia used here is a culprit is to do a ph test on the product directly. This will answer any lingering questions as to it's effects on the water.

Just trying to help

 

[jlk]

The OP is adding ammonium hydroxide which is extremely alkaline.

 

[bsualum]

I did a pH test on the ammonia straight from the bottle and it read 8.8 - I called the company prior to using and was told the product was ammonia and water. Did I use the wrong product? Should I start over at this point?
Appreciate any help.

 

[jlk]

Thats perfectly normal- the ph of ammonium hydroxide is actually in the 10-12+ range depending on concentration. You have the right product! Just let us know how your tap reads & we go from there!

 

[bsualum]

Additionally, I tested the pH on the tap water that had been set out and it reads 8.2

 

[jlk]

Thanks! Your tank is fine for ph. You mentioned you may be able to get some cycled media this weekend? If this is still possible, the day before getting it do a large water change (90-100%) and double dose your water conditioner in case your city water is high in disinfectant. Add only 2ppm of ammonia & lets see if the cycled media can jumpstart your cycle. Make sure you keep the cycled media in a bag of tank water for transport home. Let us know what happens!

 

[Andy Sager]

While you're waiting

While you're waiting for your tank to cycle, you might want to read up on converting ammonia (NH3) to Ammonium (NH4). Temp and PH play a key role in it's conversion. This is good information to know for the future.

I'd like to clarify someting I posted earlier. It is the urea in fish waste that is acidic and not the ammonia. In higher phs, ammonia (NH3)becomes more toxic and can harm sensitive fish. However, I've found that in lower PHs, the nitrification cycles seem to go faster. I've seen the opposite in Marine tanks which must maintain a higher PH. The cycling process seems to take longer to start and longer to complete if left in a natural state. Just some handy info to know

For now, just be patient.

Hope this helps...

 

[Andy Sager]

I was looking over some material on Ammonia Toxicity and found this. You all might be interested. This info was from an aquaculture info sheet by Daniel E. Terlizzi, Water Quality Specialist, Cooperative Extension Service University of Maryland System

Toxicity of Ammonia
Just how toxic ammonia is depends on the form it takes: the un-ionized form of ammonia, NH3, is very toxic, while the charged or ionized form, NH4+, is generally non-toxic.
The form of ammonia depends on pH. As pH increases (becomes more basic), ammonia is converted to the more toxic or un-ionized form, NH3, while at low pH or acidic conditions, ammonia is mainly the ionized form, NH4+.

Ammonia toxicity, though not well understood, involves the movement of ammonia from the water into the gills of the fish.
How sensitive fish are to ammonia will vary with species, age, water quality, and acclimation to their environment. In general, ammonia levels above 0.5 parts per million at a pH above 8 may result in fish mortality.
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This may help explain why my old tanks cycled faster with less mortality as I was using 7.0 ph water or lower as a baseline. There were no large water changes being done and I was enjoying my tanks sooner.
Just a thought...