Fishless Tank Holds Cycle For 1 Month?

[James_in_MN]

Yeah, I remember taking part in the thread. While it was interesting, I think its a totally different situation than here. For one, you were in the process of fishless cycling where you were adding 4ppm of ammo per day, the cycle was not complete and you had no2 present in the tank when you left. A fishless cycle at 4 ppm is designed to grow a huge amount of BB, which is not equal to a cycled tank where the bio-filter has adjusted to a actual stocked level. Also because you were mid-cycle and had no2 in the tank there was plenty of food remaining for no2 to no3 bacteria to continue colonizing while you were gone. I'd assume there was plenty of bacteria die off, but since a fishless cycle grows such a massive bio-filter and they really hadn't gone that long without food (4ppm ammo before you left and no2 remaining) there was still BB remaining to continue the nitrogen cycle.

That's actually not quite accurate. I said I was mid-cycle because I was dosing ammonia and had nitrItes (NO2) around 4ppm-ish. If I had ammonia with no nitrites, I would consider that to be the beginning of my cycle, not mid-cycle.

And yes, there's no way of knowing when the nitrIte spike subsided while I was gone; all I knew is that all ammonia and nitrItes were consumed when I returned.

I understand that we build up a large biofilter when we fishless cycle, but ammonia was disappearing about as quickly as it was when I left for the conference (around 1 day).

The OP had a stocked, established tank with a much smaller colony of BB. When the fish were gone...the nitrifying bacteria were instantly deprived of food.... no one last big dose of 4ppm ammo, no remaining nitrItes. While some decaying organic matter might have provided some sort of food source, I can't imagine it sustaining them to a level that would keep the tank considered cycled. I think it would have very quickly become a fish in cycle if the tank was simply restocked because the tank was considered cycled.

While it may be a smaller biofilter, I still think it would have at least been worth a test to see if there was any bacteria left. Again, there is limited information on how long nitrifying bacteria will live without a food source.

Regardless, the OP will be fine since she has the 55 gallon filter, I just think it's a dangerous precedent to let people assume a tank will stay completely cycled after a month. I still think the reason it read 0's with remaining no3 is simply because anaerobic bacteria had not converted the nitrAtes. At the very least, the tank should be tested with pure ammo to see how much ammo it can convert to no3 in 24 hours before we assume anything.

That's exactly my point. Why not run a test just to see if there is anything left of the biofilter?

And no, I'm not looking to set a precedent or create assumptions, but there is an assumption that all the bacteria is dead, right? Why not see how true that really is?

 

[eco23]

That's actually not quite accurate. I said I was mid-cycle because I was dosing ammonia and had nitrItes (NO2) around 4ppm-ish. If I had ammonia with no nitrites, I would consider that to be the beginning of my cycle, not mid-cycle.

And yes, there's no way of knowing when the nitrIte spike subsided while I was gone; all I knew is that all ammonia and nitrItes were consumed when I returned.

I understand that we build up a large biofilter when we fishless cycle, but ammonia was disappearing about as quickly as it was when I left for the conference (around 1 day).

While it may be a smaller biofilter, I still think it would have at least been worth a test to see if there was any bacteria left. Again, there is limited information on how long nitrifying bacteria will live without a food source.

That's exactly my point. Why not run a test just to see if there is anything left of the biofilter?

And no, I'm not looking to set a precedent or create assumptions, but there is an assumption that all the bacteria is dead, right? Why not see how true that really is?

Unfortunately, the bio-filter was not tested although I would have been interested to see the results. IMO both of us are making assumptions...but only one is a responsible assumption without negative consequences to the animals that would be put into the tank. I thought your thread was interesting and I followed it closely, but there were way too many variables to draw any type of scientific conclusions from it.

There probably is a backwards way to figure this out if we took some sort of poll. I think we can get a rough idea of the die off rate based on mini cycles in fishless cycled aquariums. For example...if someone uses 4ppm ammo to cycle their aquarium, finishes the cycle, stocks and then let's the tank sit with the same fish for a period...the bacteria level will adjust (always dying off if cycled with that much ammo). I bet we can find people who experienced a mini cycle when they next added fish if they stocked the second group too quickly...if we averaged out the time between these two, we'd get a good idea of die off rate.

For example, my 48 gallon has been fishless cycled and stocked for a few months. Last week I added 1 Bolivian and had to remove a small portion of my old media to donate to a friend with a mini cycle. This obviously isn't an exact measurement...but I'd figure the one added fish mixed with the removal of a small quantity of media would roughly equal adding a small school of fish. Right now my tank is very milky with a bacteria bloom adjusting to the change (no ammo though, just a bacteria adjustment). So, that shows that the full amount of bacteria grown during my fishless cycle are not still all there and within that time I experienced a complete die off to balance with my current bioload, because using 4ppm to cycle is WAY more than the fish in the tank are putting out in a 24 hour period.

Not really a practical experiment, but it shows there is a very significant die off of bacteria when the ammo source is not plentiful enough. Especially considering my tank has plenty of daily ammo input, just not enough to prevent any type of mass die off.

Now my fingers hurt from typing, lol. I've really got to start typing all these long posts out on the PC instead of my iPad, haha.

 

[McLumpy]

Change In Parameters

Ok, guys and gals, I just checked my parameters and now I have .25 Nitrites!

The pH is still holding at 7.6 and NitrAtes are still at 40ppm. The Ammonia is hard to decipher, (of course), but it looks to be the same shade as before, (pale yellow w/ an extremely slight tint of green). I'm saying 0ppm on it.

The Betta and Bamboo Shrimp are still doing great, (although the Shrimp like hiding a lot). I did see both of them earlier. One was enjoying a spot on a plant, just below the flow from the HOB, and was gulping up yummies. The other one was hanging out on the front porch of the house. lol

So, um... !! Does anyone have an explanation as to what happened to the cycle?!

 

[eco23]

Ok, guys and gals, I just checked my parameters and now I have .25 Nitrites!

The pH is still holding at 7.6 and NitrAtes are still at 40ppm. The Ammonia is hard to decipher, (of course), but it looks to be the same shade as before, (pale yellow w/ an extremely slight tint of green). I'm saying 0ppm on it.

The Betta and Bamboo Shrimp are still doing great, (although the Shrimp like hiding a lot). I did see both of them earlier. One was enjoying a spot on a plant, just below the flow from the HOB, and was gulping up yummies. The other one was hanging out on the front porch of the house. lol

So, um... !! Does anyone have an explanation as to what happened to the cycle?!

For my money, it shows the nitrifying bacteria in the seeded filter is converting ammo into no2. If nitrItes are showing it proves that the tank is not cycled. We'll see over the coming days how the levels rise / fall and be able to tell where you are in the cycle. I think the extremely light bioload is slowly being converted, but if you had added more fish I think there would have been trouble. Just keep a close eye on the ammo and no2 and treat it like a fish in cycle if the numbers climb. BTW, I'd do a big pwc to try and get the nitrAtes below 20...40 is okay, but the nitrAtes will continue to climb and you want to have a good head start on them.

 

[McLumpy]

For my money, it shows the nitrifying bacteria in the seeded filter is converting ammo into no2. If nitrItes are showing it proves that the tank is not cycled. We'll see over the coming days how the levels rise / fall and be able to tell where you are in the cycle. I think the extremely light bioload is slowly being converted, but if you had added more fish I think there would have been trouble. Just keep a close eye on the ammo and no2 and treat it like a fish in cycle if the numbers climb. BTW, I'd do a big pwc to try and get the nitrAtes below 20...40 is okay, but the nitrAtes will continue to climb and you want to have a good head start on them.

That's what I figured. I'm not too keen on doing a fish-in cycle, but I guess I have no other choice. I wouldn't think that it would take much to get it cycled, so I'll get busy on the pwc's.

Also, I forgot to mention this... I added some new plants in the tank earlier, (from a guy that had them in an established 150g tank). Before adding them to the tank, I soaked them in a bucket of dechlorinated water. I don't know if that's relevant info, but I figured I would mention it.

Thanks for the input! I'm learning a lot from you guys!

 

[eco23]

That's what I figured. I'm not too keen on doing a fish-in cycle, but I guess I have no other choice. I wouldn't think that it would take much to get it cycled, so I'll get busy on the pwc's.

Also, I forgot to mention this... I added some new plants in the tank earlier, (from a guy that had them in an established 150g tank). Before adding them to the tank, I soaked them in a bucket of dechlorinated water. I don't know if that's relevant info, but I figured I would mention it.

Thanks for the input! I'm learning a lot from you guys!

TBH, I'm surprised the filter from the 55 gallon didn't handle the small bioload. I think it'll be a very fast and painless cycle though. How long had that filter been in the 55? Its early to draw conclusions, but at this point I'd say you're very lucky you had the seeded filter and didn't simply consider the tank still fully cycled and started stocking.

The plants shouldn't have any affect other than helping. I have learned from others and always sterilize my new plants to prevent pond snails or parasites...but if they're from someone you trust and had a healthy tank...they'll actually be a big help.

 

[McLumpy]

TBH, I'm surprised the filter from the 55 gallon didn't handle the small bioload. I think it'll be a very fast and painless cycle though. How long had that filter been in the 55? Its early to draw conclusions, but at this point I'd say you're very lucky you had the seeded filter and didn't simply consider the tank still fully cycled and started stocking.

The plants shouldn't have any affect other than helping. I have learned from others and always sterilize my new plants to prevent pond snails or parasites...but if they're from someone you trust and had a healthy tank...they'll actually be a big help.

The seeded filter is actually a Small Bio-Bag that I placed in the single basin HOB on my 55g. I had it in there for about 10 days before moving it to the 10g. I do have a larger, extremely 'gunky', filter that I plan on moving over tomorrow when I do my pwc's to the tanks. I'm hoping that will help speed things along.

The guy that I bought the plants from did have quite a few snails in his tank, but that's no problem. If they get out of hand, I'll feed them to my Clown Loaches.

I'll post an update on the parameters after the pwc tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[eco23]

The seeded filter is actually a Small Bio-Bag that I placed in the single basin HOB on my 55g. I had it in there for about 10 days before moving it to the 10g. I do have a larger, extremely 'gunky', filter that I plan on moving over tomorrow when I do my pwc's to the tanks. I'm hoping that will help speed things along.

The guy that I bought the plants from did have quite a few snails in his tank, but that's no problem. If they get out of hand, I'll feed them to my Clown Loaches.

I'll post an update on the parameters after the pwc tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help!

Yeah, the 10 days probably wasn't long enough to colonize a substantial amount of BB to support the 10 gallon. I was picturing a nice, big nasty cartridge filter for some reason, lol.

Just make sure you don't remove too much media from the 55 that it causes a mini-cycle in there. Only thing worse than an uncycled tank...is 2 uncycled tanks

Happy to help, keep us posted

 

[McLumpy]

Yeah, the 10 days probably wasn't long enough to colonize a substantial amount of BB to support the 10 gallon. I was picturing a nice, big nasty cartridge filter for some reason, lol.

Just make sure you don't remove too much media from the 55 that it causes a mini-cycle in there. Only thing worse than an uncycled tank...is 2 uncycled tanks

Happy to kelp, keep us posted

No worries. I have a nicely seeded filter on reserve, (been in there for a month), to replace the really 'gunky' one that I'll add to the 10g. I should have just done that in the first place, but I figured I had enough bacteria in the small one... guess not. lol

The first time I set this tank up, I used 15 day old seeded media and added water from my 55g, (50%), then added fresh, dechlorinated water. The cycle was complete in no time. I should have done that as well.

Meh. Live and learn. lol

 

[McLumpy]

Super Gunky Filter Media FTW!!

Well, I performed a 40% pwc around 8:30 tonight. After doing the pwc, I removed the small, (only slightly seeded), media and replaced it w/ the really gunky media from my 55g. I did rinse it in a bucket of dechlorinated water first to get the BIG stuff out, then I poured approximately 1/2 cup of that water in the tank.

I just tested the parameters and... pH - 7.6, Ammonia - 0, Nitrites - 0!!!, Nitrates - 40ppm



I didn't know what to do w/ the small media, so I just placed it, (w/ it still on the plastic holder), in the tank. Would it be ok to keep it floating for a while? I would like to eventually remove the oversized gunky filter w/ that one once it has enough bacteria in it.

 

[eco23]

Well, I performed a 40% pwc around 8:30 tonight. After doing the pwc, I removed the small, (only slightly seeded), media and replaced it w/ the really gunky media from my 55g. I did rinse it in a bucket of dechlorinated water first to get the BIG stuff out, then I poured approximately 1/2 cup of that water in the tank.

I just tested the parameters and... pH - 7.6, Ammonia - 0, Nitrites - 0!!!, Nitrates - 60ppm



I didn't know what to do w/ the small media, so I just placed it, (w/ it still on the plastic holder), in the tank. Would it be ok to keep it floating for a while? I would like to eventually remove the oversized gunky filter w/ that one once it has enough bacteria in it.

Cool, the big ones got you taken care of . I'd take the old one and stick it in the filter so it's the first thing the water hits, then squeeze the one you want to seed right next to it so it's the second thing the water contacts. That'll seed it the quickest.

I'm not trying at all to spike the football, but this seems like pretty conclusive proof that an unfed biofilter will not survive a month. You did a very smart thing by having a backup plan. Good for you

 

[McLumpy]

Cool, the big ones got you taken care of . I'd take the old one and stick it in the filter so it's the first thing the water hits, then squeeze the one you want to seed right next to it so it's the second thing the water contacts. That'll seed it the quickest.

I'm not trying at all to spike the football, but this seems like pretty conclusive proof that an unfed biofilter will not survive a month. You did a very smart thing by having a backup plan. Good for you

Thanks for the idea! I might try that w/ the old one, but there isn't much room in that small filter so it should be interesting. lol

I concur about the biofilter not surviving for a month... so spike away! It was interesting though that my parameters were 'normal' at the beginning, then Nitrites popped out of nowhere. Had I not tested my parameters again, I would have never known. My Betta and Shrimp showed no signs of stress, (but then again, they haven't been in there long).

As far as me having a backup plan... I always do.

Edit: I typed the wrong ppm for my last NitrAte reading, (it was 40, not 60). That'll learn me to type in the dark and not proofread my posts! lol

 

[eco23]

Thanks for the idea! I might try that w/ the old one, but there isn't much room in that small filter so it should be interesting. lol

I concur about the biofilter not surviving for a month... so spike away! It was interesting though that my parameters were 'normal' at the beginning, then Nitrites popped out of nowhere. Had I not tested my parameters again, I would have never known. My Betta and Shrimp showed no signs of stress, (but then again, they haven't been in there long).

As far as me having a backup plan... I always do.

Good deal. Your animals are lucky they have you for a momma. The "normal" parameters were exactly what I'd have expected when I first saw the thread. I had been out of town or would have jumped in much quicker. For example, my 48 gallon is fully cycled and stocked...my numbers are 0 ammo, 0 no2 and 5-10 no3. If I woke up tomorrow and all my fish had grown legs and walked away, the numbers would have stayed the same. There'd be no significant ammo source to cause a reading, which would in turn not lead to any no2. The nitrAtes would basically stay the same unless the tank was heavily planted and was consuming them. You'll loose a negligible amount of no3 to the anaerobic bacteria that converts them to gas...but it's virtually a nil amount. The tank would have looked cycled by the numbers, but knowing the back story i just didnt believe there was any way. I would have just stayed out out of it, but I was afraid that due to the consensus reached for some reason that the tank may still be cycled that it was a dangerous assumption to reach. I'm glad things are handled and happy now . Keep us updated.

 

[jetajockey]

I'm not trying at all to spike the football, but this seems like pretty conclusive proof that an unfed biofilter will not survive a month. You did a very smart thing by having a backup plan. Good for you

That's assuming that the bacteria cannot go dormant.

It's been proven that bacteria can be kept for several months. Dr Tim of Dr Tim's one and only has the science behind his product and it's been stated that in the past that it's pretty much just bacteria and water.

Real phd versus my armchair phd wins, so I'm not going to argue with him.

He has a great track record with biospira and then the subsequent product tetra safestart, along with his own.

I've tested several bacteria supplement products and that particular line along with a select few others actually do as-advertised.

Not trying to fuel the fire here just wanted to point that out.

 

[James_in_MN]

Unfortunately, the bio-filter was not tested although I would have been interested to see the results. IMO both of us are making assumptions...but only one is a responsible assumption without negative consequences to the animals that would be put into the tank. I thought your thread was interesting and I followed it closely, but there were way too many variables to draw any type of scientific conclusions from it.

TBH, I'm surprised the filter from the 55 gallon didn't handle the small bioload. I think it'll be a very fast and painless cycle though. How long had that filter been in the 55? Its early to draw conclusions, but at this point I'd say you're very lucky you had the seeded filter and didn't simply consider the tank still fully cycled and started stocking.

I read both of these, then reread the entire thread. I still don't see where anyone suggested that McLumpy should just consider her tank fully cycled and start stocking away.

I'm just a person that believes in obtaining information where there seems to be none. One piece of data that IMO has been consistently missing was concrete info on the biofilter in an aquarium. I inadvertently ran a test on bacteria longevity, as you are aware, and might have considered continuing the test with longer time frames if it wasn't screaming for fish to be added to it.

When I first responded to McLumpy's thread, she didn't have fish in her tank. Since she said she had it running without fish for a month, I saw it as an opportunity to see if the biofilter was still intact. Obviously, once the betta and friends were added to it, that became a moot point.

I'm glad McLumpy has another filter to seed it with, and hopefully she won't run into a mini-cycle. Good luck with the 10g!

 

[Cobaltskyy]

Unfortunately, I don't have any ammonia to add to the tank... so I guess that test is out of the question.

My original plan was to drain the tank completely, refill w/ fresh dechlorinated water, and do a quick cycle w/ seeded media from my 55g. However, when I saw that the water parameters were unchanged from when I had stock in the tank, I figured I could just do a large pwc, a thorough gravel vac, and add the seeded media.

That's exactly what I did with my 10 gal, I actually planned it. While the 10 gal was recovering from ich (I let it sit for a while we were mourning the loss of Ernie).....I had a new filter for my ten gallon sitting in the filter of my 30 gal for about 2-3 weeks. I put that into the 10 gal watched my parameters for a few days and in went my betta! Its been about a month now and he is loving it! I also added a couple of nerite snails and things are going great!

 

[McLumpy]

I read both of these, then reread the entire thread. I still don't see where anyone suggested that McLumpy should just consider her tank fully cycled and start stocking away.

I'm just a person that believes in obtaining information where there seems to be none. One piece of data that IMO has been consistently missing was concrete info on the biofilter in an aquarium. I inadvertently ran a test on bacteria longevity, as you are aware, and might have considered continuing the test with longer time frames if it wasn't screaming for fish to be added to it.

When I first responded to McLumpy's thread, she didn't have fish in her tank. Since she said she had it running without fish for a month, I saw it as an opportunity to see if the biofilter was still intact. Obviously, once the betta and friends were added to it, that became a moot point.

I'm glad McLumpy has another filter to seed it with, and hopefully she won't run into a mini-cycle. Good luck with the 10g!

Nobody suggested that it was cycled or that I should begin stocking because, well, you guys know better. lol I went w/ the assumption that, even if the tank wasn't cycled, the (slightly seeded) media would provide enough bacteria to get it back on track, but it didn't.

I have no doubt though that my Betta and Shrimp will be fine now that I introduced a vast amount of bacteria to the tank. I have high hopes that I won't run into a min-cycle, but I'll keep an eye on that. I'll check my parameters again tonight and post an update.

Thanks for the well wishes!

That's exactly what I did with my 10 gal, I actually planned it. While the 10 gal was recovering from ich (I let it sit for a while we were mourning the loss of Ernie).....I had a new filter for my ten gallon sitting in the filter of my 30 gal for about 2-3 weeks. I put that into the 10 gal watched my parameters for a few days and in went my betta! Its been about a month now and he is loving it! I also added a couple of nerite snails and things are going great!

Sorry to hear about the loss of Ernie.

If I could have done things differently, I would have held off stocking my tank for a couple of days like you did, (and like I've always done in the past). But this time, I kind of jumped the gun. lol

Glad to hear your Betta and Snails are doing well!

 

[McLumpy]

Update

Despite me having a very busy, (and sad), evening, I was able to test my water.

pH - 7.6, Ammonia - 0, Nitrites - 0, NitrAtes - 40ppm

No change!

I love me some 'gunky' seeded media!!