goldfish and 5g tank help

[design1stcode2nd]

I need some serious help. After a weeks worth of research I know I did a bunch wrong but here’s how it started.

A week or so ago my son comes home from the local carnival with a goldfish (I didn’t take him). So it’s 10:30 at night and he has this fish in a bag and I know nothing about fish, never had one before. So I take him out of the bag and stick him in a mason jar because that’s all I have. Next day I run to the local Walmart and get this: Walmart.com: Tetra Aquarium Starter Kit, 5 Gallons: Fish

It’s a 5g starter kit. So I put the goldfish in there once I have it set up and condition the water (mistake #1 as the tank had no time to cycle, just learned that term a couple days ago). Eventually get some gravel which I boil to make sure it’s clean and add some fake plants and we add goldfish #2 because well I have two little kids right? Mistake #2. So now we have a Comet and a Black Moor both about an inch long not including tail fin.

Next we notice this thing hanging on to the side of Mr. Carnival fish and what looks like some kind of sore. More research and we are guessing anchor worm. So I go to the LFS and treat that (first performing fish surgery) and Mr. Carnival seems great. I change the carbon filter and do two 1g water changes over the course of 2 days along with cleaning out the gravel. They really need a tad more info on the siphon for beginners, makes sense now but was confused for about 5mins.

Ok so now we are up to today and I notice some mild red marks like streaks or thin spots under the jaw of the Black Moor and I don’t know what to do. Also from everything I’ve read I really need something like a 30-50g tank for two goldfish! So basically are these two goldfish doomed?

I figure I’ll need to change at least 2g each week while cleaning the gravel for waste is there anything beyond buying a big tank I can do for them? Air Stone, live plants?

I may eventually get a big tank as I am having fun although if I do that I’ll go with a live rock and salt water tank (the amount of info on that will take me 6 months to figure out) and eventually a mild reef set-up but not with lots and lots of research first if ever.

 

[mommytron]

these fish need to be re-homed. they will not survive in a 5g tank, especially one that has not been cycled. the red you are seeing on the fish is what i'm guessing is ammonia poisoning. to avoid this you need to keep ammonia levels below .25 ppm to avoid further damage (what is happening is the ammonia is burning their gills).

first thing: get a liquid regeant test kit. the popular one around here is API freshwater master test kit, $18 dollars at walmart.

next thing: perform daily (or more) water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite below .25ppm to prevent poisoning. goldfish are very messy fish and pee a lot, so i'm gussing with two in a 5g, you will have to do at least 2 PWCs daily. avoid cleaning the gravel until your cycle is complete. a lot of the good bacteria you need is housed in the gravel and even more in the filter, so leave both alone for now.

third thing: if you are not able to do this, my suggestion is to find new homes for the fish. preferably someone with a pond. possibly the LFS may take them. unless you are able to get a 30-40 gallon tank. your fish will not be able to live very long in a 5g.

forth thing: dont bother with live plants as goldfish will most likely destroy them.

ps: airstones are not necessary but will help to aid the cycle.

 

[design1stcode2nd]

That's what I thought, thanks a bunch, I'll see if I can find a LFS that will take them but I doubt they will. We are talking a twenty cent fish and a $5 fish.

Just read through thread, tank looks great.

 

[logansmomma1228]

BY NAME, DISEASES OF GOLDFISH AND KOI

 

[jsoong]

You can keep them going in a five for a little while until you figure out what to do ....

With an uncycled tank, a big daily water change is in order. I would do something like 70% daily (or 2 50% daily) until you get a test kit to tell you how things are. Make sure the water is dechlorinated & temp matched when doing large pwc's. And resist the urge to dump all the water in at once ... Put the new water in over 5-10 minutes (I use a siphon from a bucket for smaller tanks ... the hose from your gravel vac will work.)

Your fish are getting stressed from the ammonia & nitrites. That often brings on diseases. Ammonia burns causes red gills & redness in the fins .... if you are seeing streaks under the chin it may be costia or some other infection. Clean water is what is needed first. You might consider using salt (0.1-0.2%) to treat the surface infections. <Salt is effective in preventing anchor worms from attaching to the fish - you will have worm eggs in the tank ... unless you have used meds to kill all the eggs, you should use the salt. In addition, salt will treat & prevent some bacterial infection & most surface parasites, and will not harm your biofilter, so is a good thing to use (right after clean water).>

You can prob keep the moor in the 5 gal for a year or 2 before it grows too big (with regular & diligent water changes). The carnival fish is prob a common & eventually will get to be 18" or more if it survives. It really need a pond or a huge tank (8 footers like 200-300 gal ...) The LFS will prob throw him back to the feeder tank. He will have a short life as fish food if he survives the feeder tank. So really, a friend (or stranger) with a pond is a much better option.

If you are down to just the moor, you can certainly keep him until he is 2-3". that should give you time to decide on a bigger setup. <Suggest minimum of 40 gal breeder for a pair of fancies ... although you can keep them in something as small as a 10 with frequent pwc's, they won't live too long.>

 

[design1stcode2nd]

Going to stop by Wal-Mart on my way home and pick up the test kit. I bought an ammonia monitor that attaches via suction cup and according to that after two days in the tank ammonia is under .02ppm but I don’t know if I trust that so getting the kit.

I have noticed a red mark on the outside of the Moor’s left gill and my wife was wondering if it’s the plastic plants we have in so I removed one that is a little pointy. I’ll get silk in the future after I see how things pan out We got salt earlier and I’ll add some more. I’m doing 20% PCW’s currently until I see where the levels are. He was just resting on the plant and wouldn’t move too much unless I was adding food. Mr. Carnival seems just fine, no marks, distress, nothing.

In a couple weeks if they are doing better I’ll see if the LFS will take the moor back and I’ll ask about ponds. If I get a larger tank it will be for tropicals and live plants not just a couple goldfish although I’m fond of the black moor already.

 

[logansmomma1228]

Good luck! I hope they do good and find new homes

 

[design1stcode2nd]

Bad news. The black moor contracted a real bad case of anchor worm. At least 8-10 on him and he died overnight. I feel so bad.

When I tested the water It didn't have high ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. Not sure I'm meant for fish if I can't keep a goldfish alive.

So now is the biofilter and everything else infected? I've treated with Clout for two nights so it should be safe but then I treated once before and they came back.

 

[BigJim]

Sorry for the loss, but consider it a blessing in disguise. As you've learned, you can't keep one goldfish in a 5g, much less two. Rehome that comet while you can. He'll actually get bigger than the 5g tank.

What kind of test kit are you using? I'm a little skeptical of acceptable water parameters with two goldfish in a 5g. If you're using strips, you'd be much better off with a liquid reagent test kit. They're a little expensive, but they're actually cheaper per test in the long run. Those suction cup monitors don't last very long.

I can't say I had much luck with Clout. It just turned the silicone seams in my tank blue. API General Cure was much better for dealing with anchor worms. I had a rainbow that infected my tank with anchor worms and half a dozen fish had them before I knew what they were. General Cure got rid of all the anchor worms and none of the fish died, not even the neon.

You'd be best off rehoming your last fish and dosing the tank with pure ammonia to make sure your biofilter is well established. If you leave the tank bare of fish and dose with ammonia up to 4ppm for a few weeks, you'll make the environment very unfriendly to parasites and they should die off. After the tank is cycled and sanitized, get a betta or some cherry shrimp. A betta is one of the few fish suitable for a 5g.

 

[jsoong]

Not sure I'm meant for fish if I can't keep a goldfish alive.

In spite of people thinking that goldfish are easy and a good beginner fish, it is actually difficult to keep goldfish alive in a small setup for any length of time. Keeping goldfish in 5 or 10 gal is akin to a nono reef .... advanced skills required.

So don't feel too discouraged about fish keeping. With the right fish, you will have a much better go at it.

I am not sure about General cure vs Clout .... active ingredient (against the anchor worm) in both is trichlofon. The other ingredients in both meds are meant for unicellular parasites. <Anchor worm is an arthropod (insect), so is difficult to kill.> General cure does have copper ... might be useful, but may also kill off all inverts in the treated tank. <Copper may persists in the tank even after you rinse & clean it out, so the tank won't be safe for shrimps, etc.>

The anchor worm came with the carnival fish, and as I noted before, you will have eggs in the tank that needs to be treated. Before I put him in a pond (or with other fish), I would QT him for at least 4 weeks. <Feeders are notorious for having lots of parasites due to the poor conditions they are raised in. They should be avoided like the plague .... unfortunately, you have to learn that first hand the hard way.>

I suggest you remove all decoration/substrate and all non-essential items from the tank & sterilize them . <I personally will use bleach, but drying it out completely +/- heat will prob be enough.> Keep Mr carnival in a bare tank so you can easily vacuum out the bottom to remove any eggs. <You will be doing lots of pwc's!> Add salt to 0.2% to prevent anchor worm reinfection, and redose the tank with meds if any more anchor worms appears.

When you are ready for some other fish in that tank, I would clean & sterilize the entire tank before starting from scratch & doing a fishless cycle.

 

[krap101]

I think one of the problems, is alot of people get feeder goldfish (comets) at fairs and sometimes as a first fish beause they're like $.12 and don't understand the monsters that'll grow up to be

It always comes down to money . It's usually to make little kids happy, and if they die, they can be replaced pretty quickly. "mommy why is mr. fish swimming upside down, not breathing, not moving, and white?" "Oh, he just needs to take a trip to the pet store and he'll be all better." ><

 

[jsoong]

It always comes down to money .

And you will spend $10 for Clout, another $10 for antibiotics .... all to save money by getting a 12 cent fish ...

 

[design1stcode2nd]

I wouldn’t have picked a comet or any fish until I knew what to do but it was like “Surprise, I won a fish at the fair Dad!” at 10:30 at night; can’t think of a worse way to start.

To be honest I don’t think anyone is going to take him, especially if there is any chance of parasite. I’ll be on vacation next week and while he will get food he won’t get water changes so we’ll see what happens when I get back.

How do you sanitize a tank (after I remove everything) if I can’t use chemicals because it will leave a residue and hurt future fish? I also read that even soap residue on your hands is bad so I was rinsing my hands in vinegar and then rinsing with tap water.

Guessing I’d have to place the biofilter in boiling water to kill bacteria and such? How about the power filter how do I disinfect all that? Anything I can take off I can put in a big pot and boil although the plastic could melt.

Oh and my tank seals are all blue now. I guess off for more research.

 

[dkpate]

You can use a vinegar/water solution, or you can use a 10:1 bleach/water soultion.
While you are gone, I would only have the person feed him every other day.
Before sticking my hands in the tank, I just wash them with soap, and then make sure I get all the soap off. Not sure what you should do with the parasite in there though.

 

[jsoong]

10:1 bleach is what I use to disinfect things ... <I soak for an hour or so.> Just make sure you rinse VERY well after. Rinse until no smell of bleach, then soak in water with 5-10x the normal dose of dechlor.

Note that bleach may melt some nets & filter foam. <Other filters seems to be fine ... my micron filter for the magnum comes with instruction to bleach to restore clogged pores.> Also, it may be impossible to remove bleach from fine substrate like sand ... so use some common sense with the bleach. <A safer, but more expensive option is to use peroxide - which will break down to water & oxygen when exposed to light. Or use potassium permanganate, which is what the fish stores use.>

As for the blue seals ... that is staining from the malachite green in Clout. That is permanent .... unless you want to remove the seals & re-do the silicone seals in the tank .....

 

[design1stcode2nd]

Can I use 10:1 bleach on the biofilter? I'll be replacing the carbon filter but they don't sell biofilter replacements that I can tell. Normally the biofilter doesn't get replaced but in this instance I don't want to introduce anything back into the system.

 

[jsoong]

Beach will kill the biofilter, so you need to cycle again from scratch.

Depending on what the physical media for the biofilter is as to what is best for sterilization. I wouldn't bleach carbon - you can never be sure of removing the bleach afterwards, so that should be replaced. <yes, you can reactivate carbon with heating in the oven, etc ... but that is too much work...> Filter foams & such are best replaced. They are cheap, and disintegrate in beach. You can bleach solid media like bioballs, etc.