How much NH3 when starting fishless cycle?

[Legacy]

My wife started a 6G bowfront tank for a single Figure Eight Puffer. I put some ammonia in there today and we have a NH3 reading of .50ppm-1.0ppm, is this enough to get things started or do I need to add more? When should I expect this little 6G to be fully cycled? I wonder how long my wife will be able to be pacient... haha.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Zagz]

No you need more, I kept mine at 2-4 ppm until I started to see N02. If your NH3 is too high it will kill off the bacteria and stall the cycle. Good luck.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

5ppm to start. When you start seeing nitrites, maintain at 2ppm. When nitrates start appearing, start water changes and when ammonia and nitrite is 0, you are cycled.

 

[greenmaji]

pufferpunk's forum for puffer fish.. http://www.thepufferforum.org/
if you would like exellent advice about puffer's I would recomend checking it out..

the size of the tank has no relevents on how fast the cycle will happen (not that you thought that it just seemed to be implied by you last question) they all cycle in about the same amount of time if the same methods are used..

did your 40G brackish ever cycle? is this tank going to start off brackish? if so you could seed the filter with the 40G to get the little tank jump started..

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/brackish/brackish.html
6G is small IMHO for the figure 8 puffer... a pair and 5 bubble bee gobies is recomended for a 30 gallon by this highly recomended site for brackish water setups..

 

[TomK2]

Any ammonia level will get your cycle going. To date, I am not aware of anyone who performed a dose response trial for fishless cycles. No one has, under controlled circumstances, compared 1ppm with 2ppm, 4ppm or 5ppm. I know from experience, that an unseeded tank with Ammonia below 0.25ppm takes about 7 weeks to cycle with fish. Every time I have started a dose response study in a 10 gal tank, I find a need to use the tank for hospital, QT, or breeding uses and so I have given up.

That being said, the conventional recomendation for fishless cycling is to get the ammonia level to 4 or 5 ppm. It is conventional because that is what others have done, not that it has been proved that it is faster than 2 ppm.

 

[Legacy]

pufferpunk's forum for puffer fish.. http://www.thepufferforum.org/
if you would like exellent advice about puffer's I would recomend checking it out..

the size of the tank has no relevents on how fast the cycle will happen (not that you thought that it just seemed to be implied by you last question) they all cycle in about the same amount of time if the same methods are used..

did your 40G brackish ever cycle? is this tank going to start off brackish? if so you could seed the filter with the 40G to get the little tank jump started..

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/brackish/brackish.html
6G is small IMHO for the figure 8 puffer... a pair and 5 bubble bee gobies is recomended for a 30 gallon by this highly recomended site for brackish water setups..

I was refering to size, so you nailed that one on the head.

My 40G brackish tank did cycle. It took about 1-2 weeks until it was finished. I must have changed about 300G of water during that time. I think I'm done with bio-spira. I may try it out again in the future as an experiment to try to get it right... we'll see.

The 6G, like my 40G, is just a start. We have several empty tanks around that vary from 10-20G. My wife wants to get things rolling in the 6G to start and work up from there. We've been talking about getting something in the 60G+ area, long, and divide it up for several species on Brackish Puffers that have water fed all off the same sump.

The 6G is fresh right now. I imagine I could bump it up to 1.004SG since that's where I'm at right now and then take some off my bio-media out and put it into her tank. That should probably speed it up a bunch. We have 3 small pieces of Lava rock in there that I'm hoping will act sort of like bio-media because it's so poreous. =)

Right now the tank parameters are:

NH3 = 5.0ppm
NO2 = 0ppm

Doesn't seem like anything has started yet, only been about 24hrs so maybe I'll dump some brackish water in there and get the SG up. How much of my bio-media should I put in the filter of the 6G? I don't want things to get out of control in the Archer Tank.

 

[TomK2]

If you have an established tank, fully cycled (ie: two months after cycle), I would think you could take 25% of the colonized bio-media out to seed the new tank's filter without any impact on the established tank. If you can seed the new tank, your cycle can be done in one to two weeks, so its well worth the effort. The other alternative, for your future tanks, is to get the new filters 2 to six weeks in advance, and run them on your established tank before you set up the new tanks. Then, when you set up the new tank, move the filter over, and viola! instant cycle, no need for ammonia, just add fish.

edit: FWIW, if you heavily seed the the new filter, you could skip the ammonia and just add fish. I have done this and only seen transient low ammonia levels, 0.25 for three days.

 

[greenmaji]

from the recomendations on that site.. I would assume a 15-20 gallon would be suffecent for a single figure 8 puffer..
If she wants the 6G to be a brackish tank a few bumble bee gobies seems to be the way to go..
Look into the dwarf puffer for FW for the 6G she might like those.. there kinda cute.. lol
there is a good chance that the lava rock will become colinised with bactria.. but IMO to get it good and colinized it will take MUCH longer then a normal cycle (Im refering to getting some denirifiying, NO3 removing, bacteria deep in the rock going.. I would expect it to take minimum 3 months) and if the rock is too porus denitirfication might not ever happen..
glad I caught the small tank question.. it's a myth Ive seen perpetuated in the past.. youve been through a full old school cycle and I for one dont want to see you have to go through that again
good luck

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Also, to get the colonization going on the lava rock, would be best to place it where there's some current, and maybe a bubbler of some kind nearby, whether a stone or wand, as the bacteria will need a source of oxygen to really get going.

 

[Legacy]

My mangrove swamp tank has only been running for maybe 1 month so I'm not sure how I feel about taking the media from it, or at least a whole lot of it. I might try to take some since I still have some huge chunks of driftwood in the tank that are probably housing some bacteria.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I'm cycling my 55G, and took media from my cycled tank, and it's progressing quickly. I did move 3 pieces of driftwood over, which has probably housed lots of bacteria as well, and is probably helping speed up the process. Good luck with your cycling.

Just remember, if the mangrove isn't completely cycled, don't take too much media or driftwood, as it could extend the cycle. But if it's cycled, go ahead and use some. IME, don't go over 25%, or it might kick a small cycle in the already cycled tank. But it's usually not a bad cycle, just small spikes to re-build new bacteria colonies.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Legacy, how's your parameters looking today?

 

[Legacy]

Legacy, how's your parameters looking today?

Funny you ask, I just tested both tanks:

40G Mangrove Swamp
NH3 = 0ppm
NO2 = 0.25ppm
NO3 = 5ppm

I'm thinking the 40G is showing Nitrites still because I had such a huge NH3 spike to start out with. Or, the fish aren't picking up all the little bits of food and the NH3 is being quickly converted into NO2... but not sure. It's been like this for about 2 weeks.

6G Puffer Tank
NH3 = 5.0ppm
NO2 = 0ppm
NO3 = Not yet tested.

I'm thinking that the Puffer Tank is just gonna drag on forever so I better seed it. I'll take a few pieces of Bio-media out of my filter and drop in in the HOB on the 6G. Maybe I'll raise the SG of that tank by using water from mine while I'm at it. I plan to start rasing the SG in the archer tank this weekend anyway.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Cool. Seeding the 6G sounds like a good plan. Since the bigger tank appears to be just about cycled, or already cycled, you can probably get away with putting a little more than just a few pieces, as it's only for a 6G, and would benefit the 6G. Just replace the media you take out with more new media. For that small a tank, you won't hinder the parameters of the bigger tank. Keep us posted on how you do.

 

[greenmaji]

IMHO.. I would wait untill the 40 gallon was stable before seeding the new tank from it..

a little patients saves alot of heartache in this hobby.. IME

as far as food not being eaten.. only feed what the fish can eat in 45-60 seconds a day.. durring that time turn off/unplug the filter. then turn it back on after the food is consumed.. finding the correct amount of food to feed takes a little experementing.

again.. I dont recomend starting a fish out in a tank they will not ultamatley be abe to be housed permantately but thats your call.. the 6gal is big enough for dwarf puffers.. I suggest you check them out..

 

[Legacy]

again.. I dont recomend starting a fish out in a tank they will not ultamatley be abe to be housed permantately but thats your call.. the 6gal is big enough for dwarf puffers.. I suggest you check them out..

Well my wife plans to keep several different species of puffers in a series of species only tanks. A dwarf puffer is definetly on the list of wanted puffers. Maybe she'll end up starting off with one of those for the 6G. Puffers really aren't my cup of tea but I've been kind of interested in keeping a humpback puffer.

Anyway, back on topic... This is what I did today:

My archers seemed gloomy but the water parameters were good so I decided to raise the SG up .001 for this week and continue to do so until I hit about 1.010 or higher. I drained out most of the 6G and filled it back up with water from my archer tank. I then took some bio-media out of the filter and put it in the filter of her puffer tank.

My bag of bio-media was overfilled for the size so there were some pieces that weren't even in the water at all so in a sense I replaced what I took out with new pieces of media. I checked the water parameters in the puffer tank several hours later and I've found this:

NH3 = 5ppm
NO2 = .50ppm

I figure some of the nitrites have probably come from the water in the other tank. Even if they did I'm still up 0.25ppm at least. On a side note the archers are totally digging the salinity increase, might have to go up .002 next weekend.

 

[Legacy]

Ok, new results... am I ready for water changes?

NH3 = 8.0ppm (looks like the mysis shrimp I dropped in there started to decomp)
NO2 = .50ppm
NO3 = 10ppm

According to what Lonewolf said earlier in the thread that when Nitrates start to appear it's time to do water changes until the NO2+NH3 are down to zero and then the cycle is complete. If this is the case am I ready to change the water and put someone in there?

This water came from my archer tank and my NO3 level in that tank is only 5ppm, so I know that the Nitrates are up 5ppm in the smaller tank. I know something is working.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I'd take the shrimp out, and keep an eye on the parameters. When nitrate reaches 20, start pwc's. The reason I'm thinking this is the shrimp is now giving off too much ammonia. Let the ammonia drop, do water change at around 15-20ppm nitrate, about 20-30%, and watch for the nitrite to drop to 0. Once your ammonia and nitrite are 0, and the nitrate is less than 20, you are cycled and ready for fish. Won't take long after the removal of the shrimp, as the tank is pretty much cycled. Now to just make it safe for the fish by letting the ammonia and nitrites drop to 0.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Another option is to cut down on the size of the shrimp, and leave a small piece in the tank. That way there's always a small source of ammonia (mimicking having fish in the tank). Then start the pwc's til ammonia and nitrite are 0, and keeping nitrate between 10 and 20ppm.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Sounds like you are doing great with the cycle.

The link in my signature is my day-to-day status on my fishless cycle of my 55G using ammonia as the source ingredient.