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Old 04-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #1
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Talking How to safely upgrade tank?

Hi,

I have a 5 gallon Hex Marineland aquarium with 4 Glofish. The tank is only about 3 weeks old. I went through PetSmart so wasn't aware of the fishless cycle, etc, so I'm cycling with fish. I've been doing daily pwc and testing every 1-2 days; no spike in nitrates/nitrites yet (both always 0), ammonia holding at about 0.25, can't seem to get it down or up.

Anyway, the tank seems pretty small and I'm starting to feel badly for the fish. Plus, once the tank cycles (if it ever does lol) I'd like to add a few more fish and maybe some snails, so I thought I'd upgrade.

I purchased a Marineland 12 gallon bowfront tank. Since I have a long weekend this week, I'd like to set up the new tank. This is what I'm planning (any advice, etc, would be great):

1. Since the new tank is going where the current tank is, I'm going to move the old tank over onto a temporary stand just a foot or so away from where it is now so I can place the new tank
2. Set up the new tank:
  • fill with new treated water about 3/4 of the way
  • rinse new decorations and gravel and place into new tank
  • take some of the gravel from the current tank and place into new
  • squeeze water from old filter onto new
  • set up thermometer and heater
  • let run for at least 8 hours
3. test the water in the old and new tanks
4. once the temp, ammonia, and ph match, I will:
  • transfer the rest of the old gravel to the new tank
  • transfer the remaining decorations from old to new tank
  • transfer air stone
5. move the fish and top off with tank water from the 5 gal
6. My new tank has a larger Bio wheel and filter than the old one, so I was going to at least try to place the old filter on top of the new filter for a while and let it run, if both can fit that way; would this be beneficial at all?

Anything I'm missing? Is this OK to do?

Also, for cycling: it's been 3 weeks and no change in water parameters at all; is this normal? is it because maybe the tank is too small for the bio load?

Thanks!
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:10 PM   #2
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What kind of filter are you running on the 5 gal tank? If you are going to move all the fish over, it would be beneficial if you could just transfer the filter and run that on the new tank. This way you would lose almost no progress on your cycle.

3 weeks in with no change in parameters is pushing it. You ought to start seeing some nitrite soon. Have you tested your tap water for ammonia? It is possible your tap water is 0.25ppm ammonia, and with all the daily PWCs, the ammonia never has a chance to climb.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:22 PM   #3
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if i were you i would continue on normal with your existing tank, with daily PWC's, etc. meanwhile, do a fishless cycle in the new tank. it might sound like more work, but would be worth it in the end. if you can keep levels at 0 in your 5g (even at risk of not cycling) to keep your fish healthy, in a month or so you would have a larger, cycled tank, that they can move into without fear of a mini or full cycle.

there may be a better and/or easier way, but that is how i would do it
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:24 PM   #4
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That is not a bad option.... going with a fishless cycle. I was just thinking though that if that other filter has been running with fish for 3+ weeks, it must be close to cycled. By moving the fish over along with the filter, it might reduce stress on the fish you already have (more water volume=better water quality; the ammonia/nitrite will not concentrate as quickly).
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:26 PM   #5
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agreed. i was just thinking if the tank has not built any bacteria up because of PWC's and ammonia not being able to build up, than that might be a better option.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:42 PM   #6
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Thanks everyone. I hadn't received replies and was anxious about doing the change while I had some days off this weekend so I set up the tank last night, tested both tanks this morning (parameters the same) and moved the fish over today. I think (hope) they're happier!

I did place the old filter on top of the new one (the new filter is twice as large as the old, so it wouldn't exactly fit in the space). I had a Marineland Eclipse Hex 5 and now I have a Marineland Eclipse 12. They both also have a Bio-wheel but couldn't move the old one over as it's too small to fit in the new one.

My tap water is 0.25 ammonia; is that why the water isn't changing? I'm adding Prime whenever I do a change. I panic when I see that level of ammonia b/c I know it isn't good for the fish so I've kept up with the water changes. But again no spikes in nitrate/nitrite and no change in ammonia over the past 3 weeks. Am I doing something wrong? What amount of water change should I be doing in the new tank? I did a 50% tonight after I tested the water again and the ammonia was still at 0.25; is that too much or not enough?

I'm using the API kit and I find it's hard to tell between 0 and 0.25 for the color of the readings. If I compare the ammonia 0 level color yellow on the chart to the nitrite yellow on the chart, the ammonia does seem to have the slight green tinge to it, so I don't think it's zero, but so far hasn't gone above 0.25.

Also two unrelated questions:

- should the heater hold the temperature constant or is it normal to have temp fluctuations in the water? Sometimes when I check the water is warm, other times it's noticeably cooler. With the larger tank I bought a heater for the larger aquarium, a Marineland adjustable. I set the temp at 78 which is what the other tank temperature was supposed to hold as well (although I noticed temp fluctuations in the other tank as well although to me so far the larger tank seems cooler more often than it seems warm). Is this normal or is the heater defective? I don't want the fish to get sick b/c the heater isn't working properly. I do have an in-tank thermometer and it reads between 76-78 (seems to go back and forth) so I'm not sure which one is more accurate but to my hand the water is noticeably cooler much of the time.

-The light that came with the new aquarium is very harsh to my eyes (seems more bright florescent than the other tank), is there a way to change the light?

Thanks everyone, your help is very much appreciated!
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Old 04-23-2011, 02:25 PM   #7
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So did another ~5 gal water change this morning (treated with Prime), waited 1-2 hours, then tested again:

ph holding at around 6.8-7.2 (colors are similar, hard to tell exactly)
zero nitrates/nitrites (argh, getting frustrated!)
ammonia: zero - <0.25; hard to tell; I've tried looking at the vials in various lighting conditions and sometimes the ammonia looks yellow and sometimes looks like it's slightly green. when I compare it to the nitrite tube they both look like the same gold color but when i hold up the ammonia tube to the chart it sometimes looks slightly greenish, so I really can't tell.

Either way though, ammonia isn't going up (shouldn't it?) and no nitrates/nitrites at all. Been 3 weeks.
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:07 PM   #8
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I would leave the fish in their old tank for now, then get the new set up and cycled fast. then get them used to the new water and move them over
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:05 PM   #9
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Thanks, but as I mentioned in my most recent replies I already switched them over yesterday.
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Old 04-23-2011, 05:15 PM   #10
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4 glofish is a very small bio-load in a 12g tank. your filter will grow enough bacteria to handle those four fish, but if you plan to add more, your filter will need to play catch up, and establish more bacteria for the extra bio load. so you probably won't see very large changes in your parameters until you add more stock. either way, i would wait it out for 2 or 3 more weeks, to make sure your parameters are stable.
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Old 04-24-2011, 01:09 AM   #11
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4 glofish is a very small bio-load in a 12g tank. your filter will grow enough bacteria to handle those four fish, but if you plan to add more, your filter will need to play catch up, and establish more bacteria for the extra bio load. so you probably won't see very large changes in your parameters until you add more stock. either way, i would wait it out for 2 or 3 more weeks, to make sure your parameters are stable.
+1

Danios, which are the glofish species, don't have much in the line of bioload. In other words, you won't have a lot of ammonia to feed new bacteria. Moving to a larger tank is going to disperse that little ammonia even more, as it resides in your water table.

As mommy mentioned, wait a few more weeks to determine if there's any change. If not, then I recommend getting a couple more glofish, or perhaps some other hardy fish to add to the bioload. The ammonia will feed the bacteria, and the more bacteria, the more progress you'll see in your cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by libraygirl View Post
My tap water is 0.25 ammonia; is that why the water isn't changing? I'm adding Prime whenever I do a change. I panic when I see that level of ammonia b/c I know it isn't good for the fish so I've kept up with the water changes. But again no spikes in nitrate/nitrite and no change in ammonia over the past 3 weeks. Am I doing something wrong? What amount of water change should I be doing in the new tank? I did a 50% tonight after I tested the water again and the ammonia was still at 0.25; is that too much or not enough?

I'm using the API kit and I find it's hard to tell between 0 and 0.25 for the color of the readings. If I compare the ammonia 0 level color yellow on the chart to the nitrite yellow on the chart, the ammonia does seem to have the slight green tinge to it, so I don't think it's zero, but so far hasn't gone above 0.25.
Rosenweiss and I both ran into this issue. The ammonia test for those API test kits is really difficult to match 0 with the liquid. A lot of different lights make it look less like 0 and more like .25. If there isn't any green in the liquid, then it's 0. Chances are, you have very little in your tank, especially if you're doing 50% PWCs and still getting the same result. I wouldn't panic or worry about it, though... You're going to need that ammonia to feed bacteria to get your tank to cycle.

This is where the problem lies with fish-in cycles. You need to have a degree of ammonia in the water table to actually start and continue the cycle. And yes, ammonia is bad for fish, but a lot of them can survive even up to 2PPM. Do I recommend this? Absolutely not. But don't panic if you have a little (or just some) ammonia.

If your tap is .25 and your tank is .25, you probably are misreading the test... And doing constant PWCs this early in the game is just diluting what little ammonia will be available for your bacterial colonies.

Bear also in mind that Prime is a dechlorinator. And dechlors also bind with ammonia in your tank and water, turning it to harmless ammonium. This will not hurt your fish, but ammonium will also register on an ammonia test, giving you false positives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by libraygirl View Post
- should the heater hold the temperature constant or is it normal to have temp fluctuations in the water? Sometimes when I check the water is warm, other times it's noticeably cooler. With the larger tank I bought a heater for the larger aquarium, a Marineland adjustable. I set the temp at 78 which is what the other tank temperature was supposed to hold as well (although I noticed temp fluctuations in the other tank as well although to me so far the larger tank seems cooler more often than it seems warm). Is this normal or is the heater defective? I don't want the fish to get sick b/c the heater isn't working properly. I do have an in-tank thermometer and it reads between 76-78 (seems to go back and forth) so I'm not sure which one is more accurate but to my hand the water is noticeably cooler much of the time.
Generally, heaters will hold the temperature of your tank pretty constant. There shouldn't be fluctuations, especially cooler ones as that can really stress out your fish. While the automatic heaters aren't always the most accurate, I would trust your in-tank thermometer. A gradual fluctuation of two degrees isn't something I personally worry about, but using your hand as a measure of temperature accuracy is largely subjective. You can feel the water as colder or warmer based upon whatever you were feeling last. If you came in from a cold outdoors, for instance, it would naturally feel warmer to the touch.

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-The light that came with the new aquarium is very harsh to my eyes (seems more bright florescent than the other tank), is there a way to change the light?
Depending on your fixture, you can change the bulb, yes. You can get one with a lower lumen rating, which is usually on the boxes of fluorescents you find in a department store.

If you want a drastic change in lighting, whether higher or lower, you will probably have to replace the fixture altogether. Do you know what kind of lamp is in your fixture?
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Old 04-24-2011, 11:00 PM   #12
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Rosenweiss and I both ran into this issue. The ammonia test for those API test kits is really difficult to match 0 with the liquid. A lot of different lights make it look less like 0 and more like .25. If there isn't any green in the liquid, then it's 0. Chances are, you have very little in your tank, especially if you're doing 50% PWCs and still getting the same result. I wouldn't panic or worry about it, though... You're going to need that ammonia to feed bacteria to get your tank to cycle.

This is where the problem lies with fish-in cycles. You need to have a degree of ammonia in the water table to actually start and continue the cycle. And yes, ammonia is bad for fish, but a lot of them can survive even up to 2PPM. Do I recommend this? Absolutely not. But don't panic if you have a little (or just some) ammonia.

If your tap is .25 and your tank is .25, you probably are misreading the test... And doing constant PWCs this early in the game is just diluting what little ammonia will be available for your bacterial colonies.

Bear also in mind that Prime is a dechlorinator. And dechlors also bind with ammonia in your tank and water, turning it to harmless ammonium. This will not hurt your fish, but ammonium will also register on an ammonia test, giving you false positives.
Thank you! So should I not do daily water changes unless the ammonia is visibly near or over 0.25 or should I continue with them anyway? Sorry if that's a dumb question. I did a smaller one this morning (about 2.5 gals) and tested right afterwards and parameters were the same (ammonia <0.25 but didn't look quite gold/yellow, ph 7.4-7.6, high range ph 7.4, nitrates/nitrites 0) and was planning another larger one tomorrow morning before work (about 5 gals). I usually do the pwc as rule and then test afterwards.

I'll definitely wait a few more weeks and then add a couple of more Glofish if things don't change (or if the tank actually cycles) and then wait a while again after that and see what happens.

The light isn't a huge issue now so I'll leave it alone for now. The temp also seems OK; I had it set for 78 degrees fah but I'm wondering if that's too high? I've done some searches on the best temps for freshwater tanks and there seems to be different opinions and varying ranges; for Glofish the sticker on the Petsmart tank said around 70-82 f, but some other sites I've read give different temps (72-80, 74-78 etc). I had it set to 78, then got worried that was too high and it's now at 77. Each time I do a water change or feed I'll test the water and it seems to be holding around that temp (sometimes it feels too cool to me but that's probably just me and I honestly don't know what the right temp would feel like, the water wasn't freezing or hot by any means) and the thermometer seems to be accurate, I hope, so I'll go by that. But any thoughts on a good temp that would accommodate most fish?

At some point I'd like to get a few more of another kind of fish that are compatible with the Glofish and are peaceful and maybe a bottom-dweller of some sort in the far future once the tank is very established, but all of that will probably create new posts by me in the future lol For now I just want to take care of the fish I have and get the tank to cycle.

Thank you!
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:42 AM   #13
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go ahead and continue with the daily PWCs. do a test beforehand to see where you're at, your readings can help determine how far along you are in the cycle. you'll want to know if nitrite starts showing up, or better yet, nitrate (good sign!).

you're doing great so far, keep up the good work!
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:45 AM   #14
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78 is a great temp to hold the tank at for tropical FW. if you were cycling without fish you'd want it in the 80s (heat helps the bacteria along), but with fish in there you can't really do that. keep it where it's at
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Old 04-25-2011, 02:41 PM   #15
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go ahead and continue with the daily PWCs. do a test beforehand to see where you're at, your readings can help determine how far along you are in the cycle. you'll want to know if nitrite starts showing up, or better yet, nitrate (good sign!).

you're doing great so far, keep up the good work!
As mommy said here, you'll want to test beforehand. Doing the test before your PWC will help you determine exactly how much of a PWC you should do.

As for temps, 78 is within the "safe zone", but the ideal temperature may shift a little bit depending on what other species you put in there. If some other species like colder water (be sure to do what research you can first), it may be good to very, very gradually lower the temperature a bit to accommodate. And by very gradually, I mean one degree maybe every few days. This isn't really necessary, but it'll be the mean temperature between species. For instance, I have a Hillstream Loach in my tank and they prefer colder water (low 70s), so my ideal mean temperature would be around 75. Sadly, no matter what I do I can't really get it to drop under 78, haha. But temperature isn't quite as important anyway. :]

Bottom line, 78 is fine, but you may consider slowly lowering the temperature should you get species that like colder water.

A few more glofish wouldn't hurt. If you're looking for bottom dwellers, I recommend Corydoras or even a Clown Pleco. Otos are really peaceful too, and generally adhere to plants or the sides of the tank. Glass Catfish are really friendly, and I've had good experience with Peacock Gudgeons with my danio as well.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:00 PM   #16
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Thanks! Sorry for all the questions.. I've decided to test in the morning before a change and change in the morning and test again at night. I did a larger water change this morning than yesterday (about 5 gals today, 2-3 yesterday) but I didn't test the water this morning first as I was running late. Tonight I checked the levels and ammonia is still under 0.25 (might be zero or near zero, hard to tell still but don't think it's 0.25 and definitely not over), ph is 7.4-7.6, nitrates/nitrites still nonexistent . So I know I need ammonia for it to cycle but ammonia is bad for the fish. How do I balance this? Once I leave for work in the morning I'm gone for a good 10 hours and I'm afraid if I don't do a large enough change in the morning I'll come home to dead or sick fish. But I'm also wondering if my changes are too large? Any thoughts?

I might lower the temp to 76 eventually. I have a question about that too (getting warmer here last couple of days, tank heated up a bit last night, temp; showed 80 and I freaked) but I'll post a new thread for that lol

Thanks!
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:35 AM   #17
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First of all, the only thing you should apologize for is not asking these questions sooner. We're here to help, so don't worry about it! :]

In any event, though you are gone a good 10 hours at a time, you will still need to back off a little bit on how much of a PWC you're doing. I would suggest cutting it back to 2.5 gallons. What you want to see is your ammonia start to rise over the period of a few days.

In other words, do a PWC yes, but back off some. Yes, ammonia is bad for fish, but now that you've already added them to your tank they will have to endure a degree of ammonia in their water to get this tank cycled. Sadly, what you're doing right now is actually making it more painful and more stressful by not having a cycled tank for them to live in. This is delaying getting them back to their optimal health.

The only other option is to return them to the LFS and do a fishless cycle... And while this is ideal for the health of the fish and for your peace of mind, not everyone has that opportunity.

I admire that you care so much about these guys. In fact, I think it's spectacular, because most people just don't. In majority, the casual fish owner is completely content with being ignorant and doesn't want to invest the time or effort in providing a good home for their fish. So definite kudos to you there.

So, how do you balance this?

Keep monitoring your parameters for one. Ease off a bit on the PWCs and let your ammonia rise naturally to about .5. If you think that it's going to reach higher than that after you leave, you're going to just have to bite the bullet and let it go. Then when the ammonia gets to or higher than .5, do a 50% PWC to drop it down to .25. Let it hold here so the bacteria can grow. Once you start seeing nitrItes, we'll continue from there.

Regarding temps, I had a bit of a scare today too... My tank was 83 when I got home from work. I was shocked. Took the canopy right off and mounted my light fixture above the tank. I also got a fan to blow on the light fixture to help dissipate some of the heat... I hope that will help...
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:09 PM   #18
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Thanks again. This is raising an issue for me about whether I want to keep my fish in my tank. So I'm going to start a new thread and get some feedback; I think I'm leaning toward returning them but it makes me sad

Thanks for all your help, you're awesome! I added to your rep the other day, btw, you're great, thanks again!
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:23 PM   #19
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I just noticed! Thank you very much for the rep. :]

I can tell you right now that most of the feedback you'll get on here is going to lean toward returning the fish and going for fishless cycling. I too think this would be the best bet... Sorry it didn't work out as you were originally led to believe, but I think you'll find it's the right thing to do.

Glad to be of service and if you'd like my opinion on anything, you're welcome to PM me. :]
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