I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?!

[HN1]

All true, BUT... measured pH is not affected by NH3 level. NH3 toxicity increases with pH, but pH does not increase in proportion to NH3.

I'd love to hear from jsoong here even if I'm wrong. I learnededed all my chemistry from him!

Knowing your source water parameters are a very basic foundation of responsible fishkeeping IMO. If you don't know that, how can you pinpoint a new issue?

 

[mfdrookie516]

All true, BUT... measured pH is not affected by NH3 level. NH3 toxicity increases with pH, but pH does not increase in proportion to NH3.

I'd love to hear from jsoong here even if I'm wrong. I learnededed all my chemistry from him!

Jsoong is a genius! So based off of what you're saying, I guess I'm not understanding why the pH bounces around during cycling? Not doubting you at all, is there something I'm missing?

Knowing your source water parameters are a very basic foundation of responsible fishkeeping IMO. If you don't know that, how can you pinpoint a new issue?

I totally agree with this. Knowing my tap pH is 7.8 straight out and after sitting for 24 and 48 hours, as well as all my tanks measuring 7.8 gives me alot of peace of mind... and if it is ever different, I know something is going on.

 

[michaelg210]

. .

 

[michaelg210]

If ammonia feeds nitrite and nitrite feeds nitrate, what does nitrate feed on once the cycle is complete? Or does it become a continual, symbiotic, perfectl- balanced cycle where Nitrates keep every thing in check and the fish waste is enough to sustain the first two?

 

[Tivaala]

No HN1 your quite right, while the PH will affect the amount of NH3 the amount of NH3 won't affect the PH. i think i sideswiped myself and didn't actually answer the question which was "why is my PH rising over time".
(and i have exams next week....i really need to pay more attention!. i shall now go find out the information pertinent to the enquiry.)

 

[Tivaala]

PH7 = neutral.
PH8.5 = base. (more alkaline (ok not strictly true but true enough for current purposes))
so the water has gained OH- (hydroxide)
aeration can cause a rise in PH as can anything in the tank that is limestone/calcium based.

 

[Tivaala]

If ammonia feeds nitrite and nitrite feeds nitrate, what does nitrate feed on once the cycle is complete? Or does it become a continual, symbiotic, perfectl- balanced cycle where Nitrates keep every thing in check and the fish waste is enough to sustain the first two?

cycled tank = you have bacteria colonies in sufficient quantitys to process the ammonia released by your fish through the nitrogen cycle.
although we say the tank has "cycled" its actually building up to a cycle (when your "cycling") which it then maintains. - i think that makes sense?

 

[michaelg210]

of course, thank you, kind of what i thought, but then one has to verify.

Trust me it makes a lot more sense than your previous mini-dissertation on chemistry...( i wanna borrow some of your books and sleep on them)

Either way, i was searching for a listing of chemicle names on the internet, but i have not had complete luck.... found some of them but linked to a formula or equation, i.e. NACL for sodium + chloride, but linked somehow in a way a chemist understands it, but I don't.... do you know of a web link for simple abbreviations, i.e. N03 = ammonia, etc?

 

[michaelg210]

I think I need a gravel vac... perhaps too much poop.....et. al.

1. I have filter on relatively high with diffuser for aeration

2. 4 hours after 60% change did a quick change of about 80 oz and N03 high, i guess about .20 so i did another 60 percent change.

will be changing 50% again in another 6-7 hours, but then will not be able to change for probably 14 hours due to work.

worried about how high the ammonia will get in that time...

3. have cut down on feeding, will try to hold at 4 pellets per day now

is it that i need to gravel vac due to too much feces? That's all I can think of, (but then as you know my knowledge of cycling is limited- - still reading)

can anyone reccommend an inexpensive one? I can hand pump into a tub or bucket, as some of you know funds are tight and wife not wishing me to spend $$ on a little fish that in her mind you throw in a bowl and leave there, doing complete water changes every week or two...

anyone?

 

[TCool]

If ammonia feeds nitrite and nitrite feeds nitrate, what does nitrate feed on once the cycle is complete? Or does it become a continual, symbiotic, perfectl- balanced cycle where Nitrates keep every thing in check and the fish waste is enough to sustain the first two?

After being processed to nitrates you have to remove the nitrates, and I think for most set ups that is done through water changes. I think there are other ways to remove nitrates, but its not easy to do and expensive (could be wrong, only looked into it a little bit). But, I'm pretty sure you'd have to do water changes anyway to remove other things.

 

[Tivaala]

of course, thank you, kind of what i thought, but then one has to verify.

Trust me it makes a lot more sense than your previous mini-dissertation on chemistry...( i wanna borrow some of your books and sleep on them)

Either way, i was searching for a listing of chemicle names on the internet, but i have not had complete luck.... found some of them but linked to a formula or equation, i.e. NACL for sodium + chloride, but linked somehow in a way a chemist understands it, but I don't.... do you know of a web link for simple abbreviations, i.e. N03 = ammonia, etc?

just typing the name/formula into google will normally always get you what you want.

 

[michaelg210]

way too high on the NO3

just typing the name/formula into google will normally always get you what you want.

last 60 % water change was approximately 14 hours ago.... ammonio tested at .25

did another 60 % water change just now, waited about 20 minutes and re-tested.... ammonia is still at .25

Do I need to do another water change immediately? I assume yes, cause need to get the level down. If so should I take the water down further? There is a little bridge, i take the water down to the top of it, wanted to leave it in water in case this benefits the possible nitrite propogation....

should I reduce aeration? (perhaps stirring up too many poop particles)?

Is there a way to clean the gravel? I don't have a vac, not even a hand held.... should I use AmmoLock or something?

 

[Crepe]

Here's some trouble shooting:
1.) Test your tap water's ammonia (mine is .5-1ppm right of the tap)
2.) What's your temperature and pH? At certain temperature/ph combinations ammonia's toxicity is greatly diminished.
3.) What's your stocking level and your filter's turn over.
4.) Count the number of fish you've got in there and make sure everyone is swimming. I know that in some of my tanks I lose track of fish and it isn't until a week later I notice someone is gone.

Don't stress out too much though. I have to use Ammo down during water changes because my ammonia is so darn high out of the tap.

EDIT: read the other posts and you've got a decent filter and you've got only one fish. It's just up to nature to start the nitrogen cycle now. Try not to exceed .25, that's basically the toxic threshold in most cases. Nonetheless test your tap water.

At 7.6 pH you should be in a safe range.

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html

 

[michaelg210]

ok, quick start reply then will update asap, babysitting...

1.) Test your tap water's ammonia (mine is .5-1ppm right of the tap)

will do and reply
2.) What's your temperature and pH? At certain temperature/ph combinations ammonia's toxicity is greatly diminished.

temp around 75, no thermostadt in heater, auto set... ph about 8.2 as is too the tap water.
3.) What's your stocking level and your filter's turn over.

what IS a stocking level, you mean like 1 betta in a 5.5 g tank? Filter turnover is 40 gph

4.) Count the number of fish you've got in there and make sure everyone is swimming. I know that in some of my tanks I lose track of fish and it isn't until a week later I notice someone is gone.

LOL, good thing i can count to one.....

Don't stress out too much though. I have to use Ammo down during water changes because my ammonia is so darn high out of the tap.

EDIT: read the other posts and you've got a decent filter and you've got only one fish. It's just up to nature to start the nitrogen cycle now. Try not to exceed .25, that's basically the toxic threshold in most cases. Nonetheless test your tap water.

At 7.6 pH you should be in a safe range.

 

[Crepe]

You're plenty filtrated. It's probably your tap and probably your cycle slowly starting up. Don't worry
Ammonia Toxicity Forgot to post that.
You're in the "slightly toxic" zone but you shouldn't worry. If it's not your tap water that has ammonia in it it's just uncycled. You should see it go down in a few weeks. Ammonia takes a long time to kill, especially at such a low concentration.

 

[michaelg210]

ty, will get back to you on the tap N03... (it's a clandestine operation) .... did a quick 80 PWC just for grins...

Want a new filter bc Tom discontinued it.... can't find filters for it at most places, per co rep, will have to buy online....

was looking at two
Elite Hush 5 Power Filter
by Hagen
or
another one the S-10 min by Hegan
but can't find a flow rate on this one anywhere...

 

[michaelg210]

You're plenty filtrated. It's probably your tap and probably your cycle slowly starting up. Don't worry
Ammonia Toxicity Forgot to post that.
You're in the "slightly toxic" zone but you shouldn't worry. If it's not your tap water that has ammonia in it it's just uncycled. You should see it go down in a few weeks. Ammonia takes a long time to kill, especially at such a low concentration.

Nice charts, better now... (and they say cycling is stressfull for fish ? )

N03 outta the tap is somewhere around .08 - .10 ppm

Should i use ammo down? thought i read something about it API's re: false N03 readings during testing, but can't remember if it DOES or does NOT affect test results....

what do you think about switching fiters?

 

[michaelg210]

Did you listen to the local store employee and run your filter for 24 hours before adding fish? I did and like you, I now know the error of my ways. So what to do after you put fish in the tank and then learn about the need to “cycle” your tank? What is cycling anyway? I don’t even own a bicycle!

Ok… in a nutshell and at the very basic level, cycling a tank is allowing bacterial colonies that consume harmful compounds to grow to a level to keep your fish healthy.

The first bacteria to appear consume Ammonia (NH3) and excrete Nitrite (NO2).
The next to show up consume Nitrite and excrete NitrAte (NO3).

Both Ammonia and Nitrite can hurt fish long term or be deadly on the short term.
Nitrate (NO3) is less harmful and fish can acclimate to it. I prefer to keep my levels under 20 PPM, but up to 80 PPM can be fish safe.

Where does the Ammonia come from?

Your fish produce it in their waste and any left over food (or rotting plants) decompose into Ammonia. A fishless cycle, which is preferable by most standards, involves adding an ammonia source (usually a decaying shrimp or pure non-scented ammonia) and allowing the bacterial colonies to grow before fish are added. But what if you didn’t know about any of this before buying those gorgeous fish?

This is the point that a lot of folks (including me) start to get a bit overwhelmed. There’s really no need for it though. Get a liquid test kit (API Master FW is my favorite) and follow the directions. Don’t waste your money on test strips. They are more expensive in the long run and a lot less accurate. The test results will tell you what to do. If Ammonia or Nitrite equal .25 PPM or higher, it’s time to do a water change! Remember to use a good dechlorinator, like Seachem’s Prime. If you measure .50 PPM and do a 50% change, you will be at .25. Do another 50% change and you’ll be at .125, etc.

Ok, well that’s all well and good but I already have fish! What should I do now?!

Seriously think about returning some or all of your fish and doing a fishless cycle. There’s a great sticky on it here… http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html. If you absolutely can’t bear to part with your new finned friends, it’s time to roll up your sleeves and get dedicated. TEST your water daily (or more) and change it as needed! You may need to do this more than once a day so don’t be surprised. This regimen shouldn’t last longer than a month or so. Despite perpetual rumor and misinformation, changing water WILL NOT slow down your cycle and will keep your fish healthy. The bacteria that we need for a healthy “cycled” system live in the filter media, gravel, and décor, but don’t really exist in substantial amounts in the water itself.

Can I do anything to speed things up?

Yes! Get some nasty old filter media (Filter pad, bioballs, biowheel, etc.) or a handful of used gravel from a healthy established tank and put it into your filter or a filter sock in your tank. This will “seed” your system with the bacteria needed and significantly speed up cycling for you.

How do I know when my tank is cycled?

Your Ammonia levels will gradually give way to higher Nitrite levels. Nitrite will lower to zero and Nitrates will start to rise. When you consistently test zero for Ammonia & Nitrite and have increasing Nitrate, you have a cycled tank! (Woohoo!) Remember that each fish you add will add more Ammonia and that time should be allowed for the bacteria to catch up. Add slowly and responsibly and you will enjoy the hobby even more and your fish will thrive.

Happy Fishkeeping!

been cycling for about a week now.... after last night's pwc i noticed when turning on the filter it expelled some dusty / mirky looking puff of something.... should i clean the filter or is this normal, i.e. stuff building up... best way i could describe it is like an old car starting up and blowing out the thick ugly stuff till it gets going...

 

[mommytron]

you might need to rinse your filter media off if it has lots of fish food and gunk built up on it. just make sure to rinse it in the bucket of old tank water when you do a pwc, NOT tap water, it will kill your bacteria.

 

[HN1]

After a week, I'd recommend NOT cleaning or changing anything. It's just gunk and probably a good sign. How are you cycling? Tank, fish?