I think I am getting Bad LFS advice

[5x5]

I am still cycling my tank with a fish-in cycle. The PH has been high (7.8 - 8.0) and my ammonia is around .5 ppm due to my water changes every 2 - 3 days.

It's been 40 days and no sign of cycling. 0 Nitrites/Nitrates.

The LFS store told me I need to immediately lower my pH by using their pH-Down product and my tank will never cycle if I keep changing the water. However, I have 4 fish in there and don't want to damage them with the ammonia getting too high.

Is this LFS crazy or am I needlessly delaying the cycle?

 

[HN1]

Terrible advice IMO, but I understand why they advise that way. Increase your PWCs to keep ammonia below .25.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...-but-i-already-have-fish-what-now-116287.html

 

[5x5]

HN1 - Thanks for the confirmation. I was sticking with .5 as a balance between keeping the fish healthy and getting the tank cycled in a reasonable amount of time.

Can you explain your reasoning behind keeping it at .25? I imagine that will slow down the process further.

 

[chocolateplaty]

Hey,

Do you know what the pH is in your water when it comes out of the faucet? Where I live in It comes out at about 8. Unless you use a stabilizer to adjust your water it will try to go back to what the number was when it came out of the tap.

I learned long ago that water has "memory" which is why it wants to go back to the original pH. Only a stabilizer will help to change the pH to keep it constant.

I don't wory about my pH as I raise livebearer; mostly guppies, endlers, and platys. The do well with the higher pH.

 

[eco23]

HN1 - Thanks for the confirmation. I was sticking with .5 as a balance between keeping the fish healthy and getting the tank cycled in a reasonable amount of time.

Can you explain your reasoning behind keeping it at .25? I imagine that will slow down the process further.

.25 is what we consider a safe(ish) level for the fish to not suffer from ammonia and nitrIte poisoning. It will cause your cycle to take a bit longer, but consider the extra time and bucket carrying a sacrifice you are making to keep your fish alive and healthy.

I wouldn't worry about your pH at all. Cycling can wreak havoc on your pH, but once it's done things should stabilize out. Altering pH is a slippery slope, and unless you are keeping very sensitive fish like Discus...almost all fish can acclimate and live happily in a wide range of pH levels. They will always prefer stable pH as opposed to fluctuating values that can be caused by trying to alter it.

 

[5x5]

The tap water pH is about 7.3, so I'm not sure why it rises to 7.8. I haven't seen it get any higher, so I am not too concerned.

I'll increase my water changes if you think .5ppm is harming my fish. I really wish I had done a fishless cycle, but my dad kept pushing me to do a fish-in cycle and I made a decision I regret.

This LFS advice is really dissapointing. If I listened to them, I'd have ammonia levels at 1 - 2ppm and torturing my fish. While, simultaneously dumping chemicals into my water and probably altering the pH beyond survivability. This advice can from some of the senior people at the store too.

 

[eco23]

A great tool to use during fish-in cycles is a bottle of Seachem Prime. It is a water conditioner / dechlorinator...but it also temporarily detoxifies ammonia and nitrItes for 24-36 hours. The ammo and no2 are still available for your beneficial bacteria to consume, but they will be non-toxic to your fish during that time. It's a great way help protect your fish in between water changes.

 

[Deep Seven]

Disolved gases can alter the pH of the water. Water under pressure will absorb more disolved gases. If you let the tap water sit in an open container for a day and then retest it you might get a more acurate reading. It's possible your tap water is 7.8 but when it comes out of the faucet it reads 7.3 until it has a chance to offgas.

 

[jetajockey]

.25 is and isn't a safe amount, it really depends on your PH/temp, but the idea is that since it's the lowest recordable amount on the API kit, to keep it at that point or lower. It's definitely a good target range to be in.

 

[5x5]

Eco - Great advice. I was thinking about that, but was paranoid my beneficial bacteria would not be able to consume it when it was "detoxified"

Also - I am trying another idea that I cooked up myself . I started a 5 gallon tank alongside my main tank, that I am doing with a fishless cycle. I grabbed about 10 bioballs from my main tank and put them on the substrate. I am hoping this tank will cycle in about 2 weeks and then I can put the balls back into my main tank's filter. Do you think that will speed up the process?

 

[severum mama]

The tap water pH is about 7.3, so I'm not sure why it rises to 7.8. I haven't seen it get any higher, so I am not too concerned.

I'll increase my water changes if you think .5ppm is harming my fish. I really wish I had done a fishless cycle, but my dad kept pushing me to do a fish-in cycle and I made a decision I regret.

This LFS advice is really dissapointing. If I listened to them, I'd have ammonia levels at 1 - 2ppm and torturing my fish. While, simultaneously dumping chemicals into my water and probably altering the pH beyond survivability. This advice can from some of the senior people at the store too.

This might solve your pH mystery: test a cup of tap water, then test it again after it sits out overnight. The CO2 will gas off out of the water and pH will rise. This is my guess as to what is happening with your tank. 7.8 is nothing to worry about.

The reason we say .25 is not that it is safe per se, but because it's the lowest measureable threshold with most of the test kits. .5 probably isn't much worse, but I wouldn't let it get above that.

Many LFSs (not all) will sell you all kinds of crap if you don't know any better. The important thing is, now you do. Don't feel too bad. I started off basically the same way, and so did HN1 and many many others here. HN1's article will tell you everything you need to do. Good luck!

 

[5x5]

DeepSeven - I'll give that a try. I've heard about dissolved gasses affecting pH, but never thought to just let the tap water sit and test it. Thanks for the obvious, yet brilliant suggestion. I was already starting to inventory all the stuff in my tank to find a culprit.

 

[Deep Seven]

Eco - Great advice. I was thinking about that, but was paranoid my beneficial bacteria would not be able to consume it when it was "detoxified"

Also - I am trying another idea that I cooked up myself . I started a 5 gallon tank alongside my main tank, that I am doing with a fishless cycle. I grabbed about 10 bioballs from my main tank and put them on the substrate. I am hoping this tank will cycle in about 2 weeks and then I can put the balls back into my main tank's filter. Do you think that will speed up the process?

Great idea. If you're having trouble with your cycle that could definately help speed it up. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" and all that fun stuff.

 

[5x5]

If I use prime to detoxify ammonia on a daily basis, is it still crucial to keep the ammonia level at .25 - .5. Seems it would be more efficient for bacteria growth to let the ammonia get higher if its not harming the fish?

 

[eco23]

Eco - Great advice. I was thinking about that, but was paranoid my beneficial bacteria would not be able to consume it when it was "detoxified"

Also - I am trying another idea that I cooked up myself . I started a 5 gallon tank alongside my main tank, that I am doing with a fishless cycle. I grabbed about 10 bioballs from my main tank and put them on the substrate. I am hoping this tank will cycle in about 2 weeks and then I can put the balls back into my main tank's filter. Do you think that will speed up the process?

Its not a bad idea, but the 2 weeks time frame may be unrealistic without seeded media (and you don't want to take any media out of the main tank). If there's room in the filter area instead of the substrate, they should gather more beneficial bacteria in there.

Your best bet is going to be driving all over town and calling your friends asking them to donate you some filter media from an established tank. If you can get some from a healthy, established tank...add it to your display tank to help with the fish-in cycle.

 

[jetajockey]

If you are fish-in cycling, as long as there is any ammonia present in the tank then the bacteria have something to eat, and are still multiplying. Keep it as low as possible, no sense in taking chances with the fishes health.

 

[5x5]

Eco - What is realistic for fishless cycling without seeded media? Assuming I am following the guide and dosing ammonia to 4ppm.

Also - The 5 Gallon just has a little hang-in filter, nothing I could put bio-balls in, hence the idea of putting them in the substrate. You don't seem too optimistic this is going to work.

 

[eco23]

Eco - What is realistic for fishless cycling without seeded media? Assuming I am following the guide and dosing ammonia to 4ppm.

Also - The 5 Gallon just has a little hang-in filter, nothing I could put bio-balls in, hence the idea of putting them in the substrate. You don't seem too optimistic this is going to work.

A fishless cycle without media is anywhere from a 3-8 week process. If you know all the little tricks like raised temp, plenty of surface agitation, providing plenty of nutrients for the bacteria, etc..., then around a month is a more realistic time frame. Cycles are almost impossible to predict to the day, because there are so many variables with the water chemistry of every individual aquarium.

 

[eco23]

Don't get me wrong...I think it's a good idea and it might surprise me by cycling quickly and being a help...but IMO, you're gonna end up with a very nice cycled 5 gallon tank for shrimp and / or a Betta or a hospital tank all set up and ready to go