I'm about to give up.

[tarynl519]

I started a freshwater tropical tank 9 weeks ago. It's a 46g bowfront with a Cascade 700 canister filter. I spent days and days researching the whole cycling process, and talking to people I know who have aquariums. Nothing I read and nobody I talked to made it seem like this whole cycling process would be quite this difficult.

I started with 2 guppies, and 1 died after about a week. Two weeks after that happened, I got 2 new guppies. One in that batch died. About two weeks after that, I got 3 new guppies, and one by one each of those died. 3 nights ago, I stopped into my local fish store after work and talked to them, and they explained guppies could be finicky so I purchased 2 platys. They seem to be doing well, for the time being, but it's only been 3 days. Of the 2 remaining guppies I have, neither of them look very healthy. I know they're stressed.

I use the API Master Test Kit and test my water at least every other day, if not every day. I've tested the water so much that I feel like half the testing solutions are gone! I live outside of Atlanta, and fortunately, my ph test is right around the 7.2 range - even when I tested the water right out of the tap. The ammonia levels consistently stay in the .5 range. They don't ever seem to get any higher or lower. Like I said above, I am into week 9 now, just about entering week #10, and my test kit still shows 0 nitrite readings and 0 nitrate readings. I know the tank hasn't cycled because my fish are showing signs of stress. But the only thing my test kit has ever detected is a slightly high ammonia level.

I've been doing about a 30% water change, twice per week, in an effort to try to keep the ammonia level from burning the fish. Should I only be doing water changes once per week?

In reading several hundred articles and posts on the internet, I just don't know what advice to follow. It seems like everybody has something different to say. "Change water" ... "Don't change water". "Add bacteria from a bottle" ... "Don't add any bottled bacteria". I'm just at a loss as to which advice to follow.

 

[ericwithac]

Where are you getting for fish from? I personally did fish-in cycling and had two deaths, but it was because they jumped out of the tank, not the water quality.

Maybe get some hardy low light plants in there? Plants love the cycling process and i use plants and a couple fish to cycle my tanks.

 

[acewiza]

Yes, I'd advise plants as well. Throw in a couple handfuls of Java moss. Years ago when my first tank cycled the ammonia got so bad at one point you could smell it, but nobody died. I suspect you don't have enough fish to provide the amount of ammonia necessary for BB to take hold.

 

[Andy Sager]

With all due respect to the previous posts, the main reason it is taking so long to cycle your tank is because you are doing the water changes. You are diluting the food source for the bacteria every time you change the water. So if you really want to "get it over with" as soon as possible, stop changing the water and let nature take it's course. Guppies are also not the hardiest of fish to use for cycling so the fact that they were dying is not an indication of anything concrete. Zebra Danios are a better fish to cycle a tanks with as they are a hardier fish and can handle some of the stresses of cycling better than other fish. No guarantees but better odds.
On average, from a freshly set up tank with no biological life involved prior to the introduction of live fish or food into the tank, and average time frame for a complete cycle can be as little as 2 months to 6 months. So in a perfect world, had you not been changing the water, you would still be within that time frame at 9 weeks. With the water changes, you just added some time. Not a biggie.

To help you better understand what is happening in the tank, any life form in the tank is enough to start the process however, what a completed cycle means is that there is enough bacteria in the water to process the amount of life in the tank at the time the cycle finished. That means when the nitrites went back to 0 and the nitrates are on the rise. Before that time, the tank is not "cycled." So if you cycled the tank with 1 fish or 100 fish, the end results would be the tank capable of housing 1 fish if you used 1 fish or UP TO 100 fish if you used that many as long as they were of similar size and bioload. So just because you cycle a tank with 1 fish does not mean when completed, you can add a number of fish because the tank is "Cycled" all at one time. If you did, the tank will again go through another cycling period however, once the BB is established, the timeframe for this is much faster. There are other factors such as PH, which can determine the toxicity of the ammonia and the length of time it takes for the bacteria to grow. Low PH ( Below 7.0) ammonia is not toxic because it's converted to less toxic Ammonium. The lower the PH, the less toxic this ammonium becomes. Ph also controls the growth rate of the bacteria and, of course, since were dealing with 2 types of bacteria in cycling, there are 2 OPTIMUM ranges for growth and since these are not the same for both, you come up with a "happy medium" and wait it out. temperature also factors in. Ideal is 77- 86 degrees F. A good range for PH is 7.3-7.8 as this is closer to "OPTIMUM" for both bacteria strains.
So that is the basics of "Cycling"
Now, what you have available today is "bacteria in a bottle" or other means of introducing the beneficial bacteria and products like PRIME that can help detoxify the ammonia and nitrites while the tank is cycling. There is also the "Fishless Cycling" method. Being an old timer myself, I have never not done a fish in cycling for any of my tanks ( and I've had thousands of the years ) all with minimal loss, if any, because I understand how the process works. The main thing is patience. If you don't have that, you'd be better off getting some substrate or filter materials from an established tank and introduce them into your tank. This will instantly give you a cycled tank HOWEVER, you won't know how many fish the tank is now cycled for until you start adding more and the ammonia level doesn't rise. You see, the biological filter bed is a living growing and dying organism. It grows when the fish load increases and dies back when the fish load decreases. So you will not have a constant level until the bed gets better settled. That takes time.

So, if it were me, I would pick up a bottle of SEACHEM's PRIME to have at the ready and stop doing water changes for now. Ammonia will build up in the tank and once it starts to reach a dangerous level, you use the PRIME to detoxify it. Same for when the nitrite level starts to rise. If you are unable to control the rising nitrites and the fish look stressed by it, THEN I would do some water changes to help dilute it with the understanding that this is going to prolong the time it will take to really establish your filter bed.

Mother Nature is an amazing thing to witness. You can take the stankiest of tanks and water condition and do nothing but give it time and it will correct itself by the creation of the biological filter bed. That's what you are doing in a fish tank only you are trying to keep the tank from getting OVERLY stanky.

Hope this helps.

 

[Delapool]

Out of interest have you tested the tap water? Ideally that will read 0 ammonia and let you know the test kit is working. Same with nitrites and nitrates - are you getting any slight colour change between tap and tank? It sounds strange but sometimes the test kit is not working right or not being followed exactly as per the instructions.

Fish stocking does seem low to cycle that size tank however a cycled tank will have 0 ammonia. Therefore at 0.5ppm ammonia you have an over-abundance and the nitrifying bacteria population will naturally increase to catch up. It could be 0.5 or 5ppm and they will still be playing catchup.

As above I've seen tanks easily take 2 months to cycle so still within time frame. Are you dosing the normal amount of water conditioner? Very rarely, I've seen over-dosing slow the cycling process down.

The good news is I've never seen a tank that doesn't cycle. Mainly it just takes time unfortunately.

 

[ktomminello]

With all due respect to the previous posts, the main reason it is taking so long to cycle your tank is because you are doing the water changes. You are diluting the food source for the bacteria every time you change the water. So if you really want to "get it over with" as soon as possible, stop changing the water and let nature take it's course. Guppies are also not the hardiest of fish to use for cycling so the fact that they were dying is not an indication of anything concrete. Zebra Danios are a better fish to cycle a tanks with as they are a hardier fish and can handle some of the stresses of cycling better than other fish. No guarantees but better odds.
On average, from a freshly set up tank with no biological life involved prior to the introduction of live fish or food into the tank, and average time frame for a complete cycle can be as little as 2 months to 6 months. So in a perfect world, had you not been changing the water, you would still be within that time frame at 9 weeks. With the water changes, you just added some time. Not a biggie.

To help you better understand what is happening in the tank, any life form in the tank is enough to start the process however, what a completed cycle means is that there is enough bacteria in the water to process the amount of life in the tank at the time the cycle finished. That means when the nitrites went back to 0 and the nitrates are on the rise. Before that time, the tank is not "cycled." So if you cycled the tank with 1 fish or 100 fish, the end results would be the tank capable of housing 1 fish if you used 1 fish or UP TO 100 fish if you used that many as long as they were of similar size and bioload. So just because you cycle a tank with 1 fish does not mean when completed, you can add a number of fish because the tank is "Cycled" all at one time. If you did, the tank will again go through another cycling period however, once the BB is established, the timeframe for this is much faster. There are other factors such as PH, which can determine the toxicity of the ammonia and the length of time it takes for the bacteria to grow. Low PH ( Below 7.0) ammonia is not toxic because it's converted to less toxic Ammonium. The lower the PH, the less toxic this ammonium becomes. Ph also controls the growth rate of the bacteria and, of course, since were dealing with 2 types of bacteria in cycling, there are 2 OPTIMUM ranges for growth and since these are not the same for both, you come up with a "happy medium" and wait it out. temperature also factors in. Ideal is 77- 86 degrees F. A good range for PH is 7.3-7.8 as this is closer to "OPTIMUM" for both bacteria strains.
So that is the basics of "Cycling"
Now, what you have available today is "bacteria in a bottle" or other means of introducing the beneficial bacteria and products like PRIME that can help detoxify the ammonia and nitrites while the tank is cycling. There is also the "Fishless Cycling" method. Being an old timer myself, I have never not done a fish in cycling for any of my tanks ( and I've had thousands of the years ) all with minimal loss, if any, because I understand how the process works. The main thing is patience. If you don't have that, you'd be better off getting some substrate or filter materials from an established tank and introduce them into your tank. This will instantly give you a cycled tank HOWEVER, you won't know how many fish the tank is now cycled for until you start adding more and the ammonia level doesn't rise. You see, the biological filter bed is a living growing and dying organism. It grows when the fish load increases and dies back when the fish load decreases. So you will not have a constant level until the bed gets better settled. That takes time.

So, if it were me, I would pick up a bottle of SEACHEM's PRIME to have at the ready and stop doing water changes for now. Ammonia will build up in the tank and once it starts to reach a dangerous level, you use the PRIME to detoxify it. Same for when the nitrite level starts to rise. If you are unable to control the rising nitrites and the fish look stressed by it, THEN I would do some water changes to help dilute it with the understanding that this is going to prolong the time it will take to really establish your filter bed.

Mother Nature is an amazing thing to witness. You can take the stankiest of tanks and water condition and do nothing but give it time and it will correct itself by the creation of the biological filter bed. That's what you are doing in a fish tank only you are trying to keep the tank from getting OVERLY stanky.

Hope this helps.

I am taking a screenshot of this quote and posting it in my warehouse!! but on a serious note- I use prime to lock ammonia every 48 hours and don't water change until my tank is totally cycled. I add conditioned water to fill up dissipated water and a pipette to remove food excess. I personally use stability (nitrifying bacteria) per label added directly to my filter- not because I think it's a necessity, but simply because "it can't hurt". But this little bacterial lesson is a great one to see typed out in a forum!! If I could thank I would- but alas my phone hates me.

 

[tarynl519]

Andy Sager, thank you so much for all of this helpful information! I was hoping I would get a different answer than just adding plants. If there's one thing I have a harder time keeping alive than fish - it's any sort of plant.

I will go to the fish store today and pick up some Seachem Prime. I have also been told that I need to get a couple more fish in the tank due to its size, so I will pick up a couple of the Zebra Danios.

I noticed this morning that I have some brown algae beginning to grow on the inside side walls of the aquarium, so would you suggest that I just scrub that off and not do any water change? Assuming that is what you would do, how long do I wait until I do any sort of water change? And at that time, how much of a water change should I do?

 

[ktomminello]

I would just cut down on how long you have the lights on for the algae, just wipe the spot that's there if it's bothering you, if it's not bothering you leave it, it should die back on its own- or you could try dropping a marimo moss ball in there.

I wouldn't water change unless your fish are very stressed. I've used seachem prime and stability religiously with my set ups and the addition of prime every 48 hours during cycling has kept just about all my cycle fish alive- I use feeder fish that are breeding in my turtle tanks (endler/guppy hybrids). Every once in a while a few will be lost, but they were usually weak to begin with.

Your cycle timing isn't exactly something that can be predicted, just patience and an analytical mind. Though andy is right in the sense that you don't NEED to add prime until your levels are stressing out your fish I've found that your average person outside of those dedicated to the aquatic industry find it frustrating to figure out where exactly those levels are, and a trained eye can spot stress where a newcomer may just think 'my fish are finally schooling'. This is where I get the 48 hour rule from- set a time like right before bed or right when you wake up, every other day test the water (start with a master kit but once you've watched the cycle move past ammonia and it tests 0 for 2 days straight and your nitrates are on the rise you can use strips to monitor so long as your livestock is happy and things are going normally) and then add a dose of prime per bottle. * seachems website lists the length of ammonia binding as approximately 48 hours in case you were wondering.

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy Sager, thank you so much for all of this helpful information! I was hoping I would get a different answer than just adding plants. If there's one thing I have a harder time keeping alive than fish - it's any sort of plant.

I will go to the fish store today and pick up some Seachem Prime. I have also been told that I need to get a couple more fish in the tank due to its size, so I will pick up a couple of the Zebra Danios.

I noticed this morning that I have some brown algae beginning to grow on the inside side walls of the aquarium, so would you suggest that I just scrub that off and not do any water change? Assuming that is what you would do, how long do I wait until I do any sort of water change? And at that time, how much of a water change should I do?

First off, the size of the tank does not effect the amount of fish you need to cycle it. As I said in my post, if you want to keep 1 fish in the tank and it's 100 gallons of water, you can cycle the tank with just 1 fish ( of a similar size to what you want to eventually keep.) . In that size tank with that 1 fish however, it will take a longer time to get the ball rolling and complete. That's all. So before you go adding more fish, make sure your ammonia and /or nitrites have not started to rise. If they have, I suggest no more fish until you are finished cycling. ( That means you see the ammonia level go up then down and the nitrite level go up and down and the nitrate level begin to rise. If you don't have this happen, you are not "cycled". ) When finished, it will mean that you have enough nitrifying bacteria present in the tank to maintain whatever amount of fish that are in the tank at that time. If there are less fish in it at cycle's end than you want to eventually ( or immediately)keep in the tank, you can either replace the fish in the tank with similar sized fish so that there is no strain on the filter bed or you can add more fish slowly and over time so that the bacteria bed has a chance to grow with each new fish. Only your test results can tell you if it's safe to put more fish in the tank. But keep this in mind: We had a saying " The more you put in, the stronger the bed you create HOWEVER, the more you put in, the more you stand to lose." What that means is that since there are no guarantees that any of the fish will survive the cycling process, YOU have to weigh the amount of money and attachment you want to invest in the fish you cycle the tank with. remember, whether it's 1 fish or 100 fish, the tank will cycle. The fish amount just goes towards the time it takes to do it.

As for maintenance, I do a weekly water change of 10%-20% depending on how many fish are in the tank. I keep my tanks under stocked so that this amount is more than enough. Your nitrate reading will tell you if this is a good amount for your tank. Test your nitrates before doing your water change and test them again 7 days later to see if they are still within a safe range. If they are, this is enough water to change. If they are not, you should either remove some of the fish or do more frequent ( try bi-weekly first) small water changes so that there is no nitrate build up to stress the fish. Stressed fish get sick much faster than non stressed fish. I'm sure you will read of people doing huge percentage water changes and while some fish can take that, not all can which is why I like to keep my tanks under stocked and on a small change routine. It's safer for the fish in the long run.

As for the algae buildup, once the tank finishes cycling, I suggest getting some form of algae eater to help keep it under control. I'm using Albino bristlenosed plecos ( which I am breeding) and they are doing a great job in all my tanks. ( I currently have 84 tanks. ) There are other options as for fish to do this but this will help cut down on your maintenance. Algae alone is not really a problem and is not harmful ( unless you get the dreaded Blue/Green algae) so nothing you really need to be concerned about. Do with it what you want. ( FYI: Brown algae is usually a sign of not enough light while green algae is a sign of too much light. Keep this in mind for setting up a lighting schedule for your tank. )

Hope this helps.

 

[ktomminello]

Thank you Andy!! Wasn't aware of the brown being not enough light!!

 

[Andy Sager]

I would just cut down on how long you have the lights on for the algae, just wipe the spot that's there if it's bothering you, if it's not bothering you leave it, it should die back on its own- or you could try dropping a marimo moss ball in there.

I wouldn't water change unless your fish are very stressed. I've used seachem prime and stability religiously with my set ups and the addition of prime every 48 hours during cycling has kept just about all my cycle fish alive- I use feeder fish that are breeding in my turtle tanks (endler/guppy hybrids). Every once in a while a few will be lost, but they were usually weak to begin with.

Your cycle timing isn't exactly something that can be predicted, just patience and an analytical mind. Though andy is right in the sense that you don't NEED to add prime until your levels are stressing out your fish I've found that your average person outside of those dedicated to the aquatic industry find it frustrating to figure out where exactly those levels are, and a trained eye can spot stress where a newcomer may just think 'my fish are finally schooling'. This is where I get the 48 hour rule from- set a time like right before bed or right when you wake up, every other day test the water (start with a master kit but once you've watched the cycle move past ammonia and it tests 0 for 2 days straight and your nitrates are on the rise you can use strips to monitor so long as your livestock is happy and things are going normally) and then add a dose of prime per bottle. * seachems website lists the length of ammonia binding as approximately 48 hours in case you were wondering.

I think you got it a little backwards, Brown algae is from not enough light so reducing the amount of light will promote more brown while adding light will reduce the brown ( but may promote green.)

As for Testing the water, the test "strips" seem to be a more unreliable method so liquid tests are a better option. No need to switch from liquid to strips.

As for "once you've watched the cycle move past ammonia and it tests 0 for 2 days straight and your nitrates are on the rise.... " In an uncycled tank, when the ammonia level reaches "0" only the nitrites will have risen and these are more toxic to fish than the ammonia is. Once nitrITES have peaked in their cycle, then niTRATES are present. So when the ammonia level first reads "0" for the first couple days, no niTRATES should be present ( or will be present from an unrelated source outside of the tank ie. the tap water).

As for when to use PRIME, yes, you are right. Thanks for that imput. If you aren't sure when, from the beginning won't hurt and again every 2 days to maintain. However, daily dosing will eventually lead to overdosing ( as per my conversation with a Seachem Rep) so you don't want to do it daily. When the nitrites begin to rise, a dose up to 5 times the regular dose can be used as an emergency method ( as per instructions) but at that point, a water change is more beneficial prior to adding the extra PRIME. ( again, as per my conversation with Seachem.)


Hope this clears things.

 

[ktomminello]

I think you got it a little backwards, Brown algae is from not enough light so reducing the amount of light will promote more brown while adding light will reduce the brown ( but may promote green.)

As for Testing the water, the test "strips" seem to be a more unreliable method so liquid tests are a better option. No need to switch from liquid to strips.

As for "once you've watched the cycle move past ammonia and it tests 0 for 2 days straight and your nitrates are on the rise.... " In an uncycled tank, when the ammonia level reaches "0" only the nitrites will have risen and these are more toxic to fish than the ammonia is. Once nitrITES have peaked in their cycle, then niTRATES are present. So when the ammonia level first reads "0" for the first couple days, no niTRATES should be present ( or will be present from an unrelated source outside of the tank ie. the tap water).

As for when to use PRIME, yes, you are right. Thanks for that imput. If you aren't sure when, from the beginning won't hurt and again every 2 days to maintain. However, daily dosing will eventually lead to overdosing ( as per my conversation with a Seachem Rep) so you don't want to do it daily. When the nitrites begin to rise, a dose up to 5 times the regular dose can be used as an emergency method ( as per instructions) but at that point, a water change is more beneficial prior to adding the extra PRIME. ( again, as per my conversation with Seachem.)


Hope this clears things.

My bad, I was unclear in skipping the nitrite part of the cycle as I have never had ammonia and nitrates in my tanks at the same time for more than 2 days.

I very much need schooling in algae especially low light algae as my tanks are bright light planted or daylight only breeders (helps me with predicting breeding cycles).

Andy- do you have your wealth of knowledge in pdf form and can I get a copy?

 

[Andy Sager]

My bad, I was unclear in skipping the nitrite part of the cycle as I have never had ammonia and nitrates in my tanks at the same time for more than 2 days.

I very much need schooling in algae especially low light algae as my tanks are bright light planted or daylight only breeders (helps me with predicting breeding cycles).

Andy- do you have your wealth of knowledge in pdf form and can I get a copy?

Sorry, it comes from 50 years of keeping and breeding fish and 40+ years working in the pet industry. No PDFs or internet info .....BOOKS!!!

 

[platylover26]

I think Andy Sager covered pretty much everything, so I'll just say this: Don't give up on fish keeping! Cycling can be the most stressful thing, but once it's finished, you'll love your aquarium(s)! (Haha, before you know it you'll have three) I struggled through a similar situation, and after a little while it settled down. Now I love my aquarium and you will too! The best of luck, fellow fish keeper! I hope it works out well for you and your fish....

 

[ktomminello]

Sorry, it comes from 50 years of keeping and breeding fish and 40+ years working in the pet industry. No PDFs or internet info .....BOOKS!!!

Ha ha ha ha ha- I just downloaded about 40 400 page books from the national library online and have a collection of "antique" fish books from the 40's and 50's that have kept me going thus far. Glad there are "old timers" like yourself (though I highly doubt that you're that old maintaining that many tanks) to hand down knowledge to enthusiasts instead of just barking orders!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Ha ha ha ha ha- I just downloaded about 40 400 page books from the national library online and have a collection of "antique" fish books from the 40's and 50's that have kept me going thus far. Glad there are "old timers" like yourself (though I highly doubt that you're that old maintaining that many tanks) to hand down knowledge to enthusiasts instead of just barking orders!!

I can't tell how much information I found while looking for something else in a book. That's the negative ( to me) about the internet. If you don't know what you are looking for, it can't tell you what to look for while you can "accidently" find it in a book.
As for how old I am, yes, I am that old. But when you love fishies as I do, you don't mind the work. When I was younger, I knew a number of "pros" that were older than I am now who were working more tanks than I am now. Sadly, they are all long past dead. Sometimes I feel like the last dinosaur. But my goal here is more to teach you how and why than tell you what to do. Because I have dealt with many different areas of the U.S. and the world, I know that everybody's water is not the same so I can't always say that "THIS" is the right way however, there are some fundamentals that are true no matter what and THAT'S what's important to learn.

Enjoy reading those 40 books.