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Old 09-23-2009, 05:09 AM   #1
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Introducing fish from diff pH

Hi,

My tanks have cycled
pH: 7.6-7.8
NH3: 0ppm
NO2: 0ppm
NO3: 10ppm

Currently with 6 guppies.

The pH from the LFS is about 7.2-7.4. How would i introduce new fish from the LFS into my tanks without having them get fin clamp or pH shock.

I know about floating the bag in the tank and slowly adding water, but is that enough? I've had fish get sick/die even when i do this.

Cheers
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Old 09-23-2009, 05:53 AM   #2
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A PH drop of 0.2 is not going to cause any harm so I would not worry about it. If it was anything over 1.0 whole point I would then be more aware.

I personally add a scoop of aquarium water into the bag with the fish in as it sits in the aquarium waiting for temperature to equilibriate.

I do this every 5 mins with about half cup of water... helps gradually bring PH in line with what aquarium is. Gradual change rather than dumping straight into tank.
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Old 09-23-2009, 06:31 AM   #3
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There's an article there on the different acclimation methods in the articles section.
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Old 09-23-2009, 06:45 AM   #4
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Thanks,

I've read the article and I've done the Floating Bag method, out of 3 guppies. 1 have died, 1 is sitting at the bottom and 1 seems okay. This is after the 5th day...

The first day, they seemed fine. But after the 2nd/3rd day they started to clamp their fins.
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:28 AM   #5
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What is the GH/KH of your water?
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:25 AM   #6
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ohh dear

Does that affect things? I haven't read much about the GH/KH. Would a big difference in GH/KH affect the fish?

I've only got the API Master Kit.

I currently add aquarium salt/conditioner to the tank which would make it ATLEAST 180ppm (10dGH) for GH and 330pm for NaCl.

Edit: I've also got shell grit in my gravel (rock + shell bits)
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Old 09-23-2009, 09:01 AM   #7
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10Gh is about medium hardness.... in the middle between hard and soft water.

What is your KH? Any drastic/large changes can have possible stress effect on fish but nothing to cause death ( unless dealing with very sensitive species )
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Old 09-23-2009, 12:17 PM   #8
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The change in salt level might also be a problem. Also, with shells in your tank, your water parameters (GH/KH) would be different from the lfs's.

I like to do drip acclimatization. This is a prolonged version of the bag & add water routine. Basically, I put the bagged fish in a container, & rig up an airline hose to drip water into the bag slowly, letting the bag overflow into the container. The goal here is to slowly dilute out the bag water with your tank water over several hours. <I usu. add 3-4x the water volume in the bag.>

Sometime, the new fish is just sick to start or the rough catching/handling at the lfs is the problem rather than your acclimatization.
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:22 AM   #9
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Would a big difference in salt/pH/hardness be a problem?

No matter how hard i try to acclimatise some fishes to my moderately hard/slightly salt FW tank, they end up dying within a few days or getting sick. Is there anything that can be done?
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:08 AM   #10
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It's not a problem per say, but a big difference certainly requires extra attention. The bigger the parameter difference, the harder it will be on your new fish. If your water parameters are very different to where they came from then you will have to acclimate them slowly over a longer period of time. I am also an advocate of the drip method. Since I swapped to this method, I haven't lost a fish.

I spent 2 and a half hours acclimatising some fish shipped from Darwin to me in Melbourne. This was due to the large difference in water params and I also factored in stress caused by the 3000km trip. I know how well I feel after travelling that far

Just another thought... Are you getting all your fish from the same source? If you're getting them from an LFS, its possible that they are already sick when you get them. Some LFSs are better at keeping fish than others. Perhaps try another source?
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:22 AM   #11
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Thanks for the info, I'll try a really slow drip method next time. I'll try it next week when i get some more.

Unfortunately the 3 new guppies didn't make it. The other two were dead when i got home today.

the 3 guppies were from the LFS. Tap water
pH - 7.4ish
NH3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 80-100ppm

I 5 other guppies from my friend. Rainwater, i haven't tested the water yet. They have all since passed away. I currently have 5 happy guppies, but i can't seem to bring any more into my tanks without the new guppies getting sick.

I'll try an extra slow drip on my next guppies and let you all know how it goes.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:07 AM   #12
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Your tap water is 80-100ppm of no3???

Quite high, this could be having a bad effect on new comers to your tank.

My NO3 comes out "ALOT" lower from tap.
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Old 09-24-2009, 11:34 AM   #13
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That 80+ NO3 must be a error, right? The original post says the NO3 in the tank was 10.

NO3 of 100 would be lethal.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:37 PM   #14
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Prob meant no2 of 80 but thats still on high side.
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:25 PM   #15
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Sorry, i should of been more clear.
The LFS uses tap water, but the water parameters the guppies were in had 80ppm of NO3.


NO3 in my tank is 10-20ppm
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Old 09-25-2009, 12:09 AM   #16
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Ah, so the lfs kept their fish in NO3 of 80+, and you need to acclimatize them to your NO3 of 10-20.

You better do a very slow drip acclimatization - maybe over 3-4 hrs. That is a rather drastic shift in osmolarity.

Also, it is not that healthy to keep fish in NO3 of 100. That is typical of a neglected tank. You might want to try a different lfs. With tanks like that, who knwo want the fish's health is?
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Old 09-30-2009, 10:54 PM   #17
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A big thanks for everyones advice.

I got 5 new guppies from my friends tank (rainwater)
NH3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 20-30ppm
PH - 7.4-7.6
he doesn't use salt or water hardener.

I did a very slow water drip for 3.5 hours.

Day 1 - looking good (eating)
Day 2 - looking good (eating)
Day 3 - 2 looks like they are fin clamping (eating)
Day 4 - 3 are swimming on the top... (4 not eating)
Day 5 - 4 dead and 1 looks like its going to die (none are eating)

This is in a tank which currently has 5 guppies + 10 frys.

The only difference is that my tank has salt 150ppm and 10-12d water hardness (water conditioner + shell grit).

I'm at a loss as to whats going on.
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:30 AM   #18
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I'm sorry it didn't work. Hang in there.

Just so I'm clear, can you re-confirm the facts?

In your first post, you indicated you had 5 guppies sourced from a friend. You later indicated that these had died, but in your last post, you mention you have 5 guppies + 10 fry. So sorry if I have misunderstood.

This is what I could get:

5 guppies from a friend (when did you get these?)

You added 3 from the LFS - they died relatively quickly.

You then got 5 more from your friend again and did the drip method. They lasted no more than 5 days.

Lets assume that the fish from your friend are healthy and kept well. You have had two batches from him who haven't made it.

Big difference in water params may still be an issue, but a slow drip should have yielded better results than it did.

It raises some more questions:

1. What is the size of your tank?
2. How long has it been established?
3. Have you been keeping fish successfully in this tank until recently?
If so, what fish were there before you added the 5 guppies that eventually died?
5. Do you have driftwood? If yes, where did it come from? When did you put it in? and how did you prepare it before putting it in the tank (eg: boil, wash, etc)
6. What substrate are you using?
7. Are there any ornaments in the tank?
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Old 10-01-2009, 07:26 AM   #19
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Sorry, I'm all over the place.

Currently i have 5 guppies + 10 frys currently in the tank.

The 5 guppies came from the LFS (2 males from LFS A, 3 females from LFS B). The females have given birth to the 10 frys (3 + 5 + 1, in order from oldest to youngest).

This was all done before the initial 5 guppies from my friend, about 2 weeks before:
* Used to have drift wood + anuabis (From LFS), removed driftwood, now its just anuabis in the gravel.
* Used to have ornaments (sunken ship from LFS A), removed and now drying on the shelf somewhere.
* The only thing in the tank is gravel (Rock + shell grit, from LFS A), Anuabis plant (2 of them) and another one I dont know.
* Bunch of ramshorn snails, from some other LFS.

* Water change of 25% weekly. The tank has been up for about 3-4 months.
* Water change consists of tap water in a bucket + prime + aquarium salt (225ppm salt + 120ppm GH) then slowly into the tank.
* Tank is 85L
* Filter is Overhead biofilter (Filter floss + Ceramic Noodles)

Timeline:
* I have 3 males from LFS A, 3 females from LFS B (During all this, my females also give birth to a few fry)
* I then introduce 5 initial guppies from my friend, using the bag in the tank method + scooping water into the bag. I usually do this for 1 hour.
* They died... I assumed it was a difference in pH as he was using rainwater. So my gf bought 3 female guppies from LFS B
* Did the bag method again over a period of 1 hour. The died in roughly 4 -5 days.
* Then one of my males died suddenly, he was looking sick for a while (1 month) with no exterior signs.
* Got another 5 from my friend, did the very slow drip method. And all 4 have died, except one. Shes currently got fin rot on her side flippers (not sure what they're called). His guppies look healthy, he has about 50-80 of them in two tanks or something.
* So I have 5 guppies + frys that have been living happily throughout this ordeal.

I hope this info helps. The difference is that i have gravel + shell grit + salt + hardness and the new guppies dont like it.
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Old 10-01-2009, 08:40 PM   #20
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It may be the water, or it may be something in the tank (a parasite, or something.) If it is something in the tank, the frys should be first to succumb. Since they are doing well, that would make disease in the tank less likely.

Drip acclimatization like you did should do the trick, even with drastically different water. The only thing I can see that may be a problem is the salt. Did you measure the salt content in the tank? Or is this your calculated salt level. I am thinking this may be possibly salt creep. <Some of the water had evaporated, concentrating the salt level. If you don't account for that in your pwc, the salt level will slowly creep up over the course of a few months. The current occupants is OK because of the slow increase, but new occupants cannot handle it.>

you may have to set up a QT tank to solve this mystery. <QT is a good idea in any case.> If you have a spare tank/tub, you can set it up to mimic your existing tank's water exactly. (But don't contaminate it with anything from the main tank - water, substrate, nets, etc.) Put your new fish in it after acclimatization & see if they fare any better. <Normally in a QT, you would want the QT to be cycled by transfering some of the media from your main tank to the QT. But since you don't know if the main is "safe", you can't do that. You will have to do daily water changes to keep levels down, or possibly get the media from your friend's tank.>

If the fish survives QT (gives it a week or 2), but die in your tank, then you have ruled out the water parameter shift as the culprit. This may seem a lot of work, but QTing new fish is essential in preventing introducing diseases into your main tank once established. So you may as well get into the habit.
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