Is "River Water" better?

[renosteinke]

Just an update here....

I have stuck with the original basic idea. Instead of the (expensive) manufactured fountain, I have started with a basic pond kit. My main reason was to have a larger area for the fish; the fountain had a rather narrow channel around a central pillar.

The basin is about 33" ID, and at least 10" deep; it was packaged as a "35 gallon" pond. I have had it filled, and aerating, for 36 hours now.

Later today I will pick up some "feeder" goldfish .... just a few, to get the "cycle" started. I am told that I really ought to give the cycle a couple weeks to get going properly.

The basin, with a small pump and single flow head, cost about $40. I expect that this fountain will provide enough aeration. The first bag of gravel set me back another $15.

Filter has not been bought yet, nor have I constructed the 'bench' around this pond, nor the central pillar. One step at a time...

I may be slow to get started, but I am quite serious about this project.

 

[Regen311]

"Just a few" feeder goldfish is the capacity of 35 gallons... that isn't very large for goldfish. At 35 gallons, a "few" feeder goldfish is all you're going to be able to have. Also, if the pillar is in the center, the pond wont hold 35 gallons at all...

 

[Regen311]

Something else I thought of overnight that I might not have made clear.... 3 feeder goldfish is basically the maximum capacity of that "pond" (although at 35 gallons, it's more like small-mid size aquaium). Any more than 3 feeder goldfish, and you're going to be constantly doing water changes. You never mentioned how many "a few" are, but really anything over 3 is too much. So if you'er just getting the "feeder fish" to start, that's a mistake, as that's not a start, but the entire population of the "pond"

 

[renosteinke]

I suppose that there are some things I'll have to learn the hard way. If nothing else, this thread can serve as a "log" for the benefit of those who may follow.

While this basin holds, best as I can tell, an honest 35 gallons of water, it sure looks huge. With an inside diameter of 33" and a depth of 10-12 inches, it's big enough for a small dog to swim laps.

After filling the tub, my next task was to get the fish. At the local "box mart" I see a tank that can't be more than 15 gallons, with easily 200 tiny goldfish. By 'tiny,' I mean with an overall length of about an inch; take away the tail fin, and you're looking at a fraction of an inch. Somewhat smaller than what you would find in a sardine can.

One of my customers has a similar indoor pond, maybe a 60 gallon, with two massive koi. These fish don't have room to really swim; they just seem to hover. Otherwise, they seem pretty healthy. By 'massive' I mean with bodies - not counting the tail fin - about 14" long. Plenty big for the dinner table.

The tank at the store was awful; at least half the fish were dead. This led me to expect a high mortality rate. At 28 cents apiece, I figured I'd try ten. I think I have ten .... I made a mistake getting red gravel, though, and can only find eight at any one time. No floaters as yet ... they seem to be loving their new home.

The water is somewhat cloudy, with a slight film atop it, after four days. Since I have been patching drywall, I am sure some of this is dust from the sanding operations. Likewise, Reno is dusty in the best of times I also -accidentally - really over-fed them the first time.

I am running the fountain to aerate the pond 16 hours a day. As yet, there is no filter installed. The fountain head is one of those that make a mushroom shaped curtain fo water, rather than a noist spray type.

At this point, my focus is on getting "the cycle" started. Tonight's errand will be to look at filters, and consider adding a catfish or two. I will also need to get different gravel!

The project has been getting rave reviews from my cats; as far as they're concerned, the pond has the tastiest water in the world! (These cats have been around fish before, and I do not expect any serious 'fishing' from them).

 

[Regen311]

Do you have any kind of test strips of chemicals to test the water your fish are in? A filter is going to become very important very fast, especially with those goldfish. Do you have a gravel vac? I'd say with what you're doing, you definately need to get some nitrite and ammonia test solution to begin with. You can get the freshwater master kit for about 15 dollars.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsU...quariumpharmaceuticalsfreshwatermastertestkit
This will let you know when to do water changes (at a minimum). If you have questions about any of it, most of us here test our aquarium water regularly so can probably help. It's important especially at the beginning.

My cat loves tank water too. There's a top on the tank I have now, which I think kind of depresses her. I could never figure it out, I'd change her water twice a day, i used 3 different kinds of water bowls, and she still wanted the fish water. She had no interest in the fish though, just the water.

Since the fish you have now are aout an inch, right now having 10 of them in there probably won't be that big of a deal. They grow fast though. Those feeder fish can get to be huge. They do have a ton of those fish packed into one tank, but there are always a lot of dead ones in there, and I don't think the fish stay in that tank very long.

What type of catfish are you getting? Don't get a plecostomus, at least not the regular kind. They'll grow to about 18" and really are too big for ywhat you have. They also tend to be very "messy" fish as well, so you'll REALLY have to keep up with gravel vacs once the grow. There are other kinds of plecostomus which don't get quite as big, and corydoras (cory catfish) stay small, but I'm thinking that's not waht you want in a pond. One of the smaller varieties of plecostomus might work out, but most plecostomus need to have some type of driftwood in the tank to graze on.

I also really hope you realize that this is a pretty big undertaking. Having goldfish, and a plecostomus, in a pool of water that size is going to take a lot of work. You're going to have to do AT LEAST weekly water changes/gravel vacs and you're going ot have to test the water regularly. Once you get used to doing it all, it's not too big of a deal, but it will require work.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

 

[renosteinke]

It seems that the biggest temptation I have to face is the temptation to rush things.

I'm just getting started; that is, right now there is no 'nitrogen cycle.' Until that cycle gets established ... which I am told will take anywhere from two weeks to two months ... the water test levels wil be all over the map.

Last night it was pointed out to me -duh!- that the nitrate levels will be most serious near the gravel ... which is where any catfish would prowl. No point in poisoning one; better wait for the cycle to get going.

A filter is on today's shopping list. Again - probably obvious to you more experienced folks- the filter not only keeps the water clear; it's a big part of the cycle. Bacteria heaven, if you will.

By 'catfish' I have in mind those little things you see in tanks all the time, with a body length of about 1 1/2 inches. I see their role, as well as snails, as helping to clean the pond.

It looks ... and correct me, please, if I'm wrong here ... that I might want to add a few plants before I get all that involved with fish. Again, because of the role the plants will play in the cycle. My pond has two levels; one is maybe 4" below the surface, and the other is about 10" down.

Big project? Lots of details? You bet. It seems more like a dance ... get all the steps right, in the right order, and I will have something of grace and beauty. Stumble once, though, and ....crash!

 

[Regen311]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that because you are just starting, it's not important to check the levels? Because I would think the opposite. Yes, the numbers are going to be all over the place, that's why you need to check them. Ammonia will spike first, adn wehn the levels get high, you need to do a water change. Once they reach zero, you will start having nitrites. You need to do water changes when those are high as well. So, unless you want to kill your fish, right now you should be checking the ammonia levels and doing water changes when they get too high (it's going to be VERY frequently, but you still need to know). Also, depending on how high the levels are, you will need to change more or less of the water.

I still don't know what catfish you're talking about. Plecostomus are small when they're in the petstore usually. Can you find an internet picture somewhere?

 

[renosteinke]

What? There's more than one kind of catfish? How little I know....

After a week of just fish and water, I have added a filter, and some plants. The plants are floating 'water hyacinths.' I understand all the concern about goldfish now; the pond place had some truly massive ones!

Before adding the filter and plants, I tested the water. Results are all at the low end of the scales - ammonia 1.0; Nitrates 5.0; Nitrites 0.25. Ph is 7.5, about perfect for goldfish.

The point about water changes is a good one; I am setting aside a bucket to air out, so that I will have water available as needed.

Since I just added the plants, I will re-test tomorrow.

 

[Regen311]

1.0 is not low for ammonia. That can quickly become quite toxic, and even 1ppm is toxic to fish. If you notice that you are up to 1ppm for ammonia, you need to do a 50% water change (reduce it to .5ppm). One bucket won't do much. You'll need to change out at least 10 gallons, preferably 15. By the way it sounds, you may need to do this daily for a while.

 

[renosteinke]

A day has gone by since my first test. In this time, I have added a filter, and some plants. As I shifted the gravel about, a fair amount of 'silt' was stirred into the water. As I write, the water appeard as clear as it's ever been.

A repeat of the water testing has shown the level to be holding at 1.0. My nitrates and nitrites are now non-existent, and the Ph has dropped quite a bit, to 6.4.

The test kit measures ammonia as high as 8.0; the instructions caution that, in a new tank, that it can climb as high as 4.0 before the cycle is established.

I will continue to monitor, daily for a while.

As a side note, the filter I am using is quite a bit different from what I saw in aquariums as a kid. Back then, the filter was a submerged plastic box, with two compartments. These were filled with fiberglass and activated charcoal.
This filter is one intended for use in ponds. I place the fountail pump at the lowest portion of this box, together with some balls that are supposed to provide for bacterial growth. Atop this are two layers of non-woven plastic pads, rather similar to "Scotch-Brite." These pads are for filtering out coarse and fine particles. The entire assembly is ballasted by some aquarium gravel set on the top.

 

[annielauri]

Not trying to be rude or anything, but I don't think the author of this thread wants feedback. Only wants to tell how he is doing things right or wrong???

 

[Regen311]

Yeah, I don't know, I just hate seeing people torture fish or waste money, so I'm trying to give advice, but yeah, I don't think it's being taken.

Unfortunately it seems like a lot of new people to the hobby don't take advice untill it's too late. Things can look ok for a long time before something really bad happens, then it's too late.

1.0 ppm is toxic. I don't care what the box says. Yes, it can climb as high as 4.0, and then most of the fish die. That's what happens to a lot of people new to the hobby. 1.0ppm won't kill your fish immediately, but it will over time (days, weeks, depending on other things). And I don't know why you would want to stess your fish out by keeping them in water that is 1ppm ammonia.

Bucket changes of water, like I said before, will do nothing. With 35 gallons, you'll need to change, like i said, a minimum of 10 gallons at a time. Especially with 10 goldfish in there... If you really are serious about wanting this to work, you should try taking some of our advice.

 

[MyCatsDrool]

/e simply shakes her head.

 

[renosteinke]

My apologies if I've seemed unresponsive.

I am receiving lots of advice, often from differing sources. No one can make the calls but I, and I have to live with the results.

It is this forum that persuaded me to actually test the water now, rather than after the cycle is established. Likewise, it was this forum that underscored that the bacteria is on the contents of the pond, rather than in the water itself.

In many ways, this project is neither 'fish nor fowl.' It's not an outside pond, a natural body, or your traditional aquarium.

Pond designers have stressed the value of using plants, early in the cycle, to get things going correctly. This is contrary from common aquarium practice, where live plants seem to be the exception, and saved for more advanced keepers with established tanks.

This uncertainty is also part of the reason I am starting with ... dare I say it ... cheap fish. I'm not about to risk an expensive exotic in my inexperienced hands. There seems no escaping the need to place some fish at risk to get things started; otherwise someone would be suggesting just pouring some ammonia in a bucket, and letting it age.

Believe me, I value your input. With daily testing, I hope to be able to spot a trend before there's any real harm done. Theat the ammonia level has held level overnight, while the nitrates and nitrites have dropped, might suggest that things are going in the right direction. One day, however, does not make a trend.

And, believe me, I have fresh water standing by ... just in case!

If nothing else, I hope that this log will be of value to others. Both success, and failure, will be out there for all to see. There are a lot of "experts" giving me advice, and, believe me, there are lots of contradictions in that advice! The pond expert, the fish store operator, the dedicated hobbyist .... all have had their say. It's pretty hard to know who to listen to, and when.

So please, keep the observations, and opinions, coming. After all, I did refrain from using river water!

 

[MyCatsDrool]

This uncertainty is also part of the reason I am starting with ... dare I say it ... cheap fish. I'm not about to risk an expensive exotic in my inexperienced hands. There seems no escaping the need to place some fish at risk to get things started; otherwise someone would be suggesting just pouring some ammonia in a bucket, and letting it age.

There is no monetary value on life.

 

[Regen311]

otherwise someone would be suggesting just pouring some ammonia in a bucket, and letting it age.

Actually... someone kind of did. In fishless cycling, that's what you do (well, one method)... you can add pure ammonia to water, wait for the ammonia to go to zero then for the nitrites to go to zero, then add fish....

Believe me, I value your input. With daily testing, I hope to be able to spot a trend before there's any real harm done. Theat the ammonia level has held level overnight, while the nitrates and nitrites have dropped, might suggest that things are going in the right direction. One day, however, does not make a trend.

I'm kind of confused about the whole nitrites going to zero. You wouldn't really have nitrates yet... but the nitrites shouldn't go away untill after the ammonia has, so I'm not sure what to say about that, but you still need to get the ammonia under 1ppm

 

[Big Ben]

Please, for the lives of your fish, take some advice.

your going to be way over stocked. To me, 35 gallons is a tiny pond. When i think of pondfish i think of koi and goldfish...both which get quite large and produce high bioloads which means they poo alot. As already mentioned, 2-3 goldfish would be the maximum amount of fish you could keep in their. I wouldnt even puta single lone koi in there.
Most goldfish grow to 8 inches minimum. 10-12 inches isn't very deep either, usually the most shallow an aquarium is youll find. After a while you'll find yourself in a similar situation as the guy with 2 koi in the 60 gal, they might be surviving, but probly not thriving.

The health of feeder fish is always questionable at best. With that many to cycle your tank, i wouldnt be surprised to find them all dead within a week without very closely monitoring with your ammonia and nitrite test kit.

Since youve already went out and got the goldfish its too late to fishless cycle. As its alraedy been mentioned, If you want to have a chance at keeping any of those fish alive you will need to use your ammonia and nitrite test kit often. You will have to change the water to keep the ammonia down to a minimum, most ppl will say at 1 ppm max. Thats a little high still im my opinion i would try 0.5 ppm.

Nitrite is even more dangerous to the fish and you should try ur best to keep nitrite to 0.5ppm as well.

A cycle can tank about a month with fish, that is in a tropical aquarium. In cold water, it would be even slower.

I really reccomend you try to obtain something from an established tank that will have beneficial bactera (this bacteria feeds off the turning it from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate). Whether it be some filter media, gravel or a decoration, this will speed up the time it takes to cycle greatly.

Please take the advice given, ive had fish for a 1 year now and when i started last february i almost learned the hardway when i started my first 10 gallon aquarium. I had lost a few fish from cycling and the people on this forum saved me from losing anymore, other then a few from disease infested wal-mart (a hard learned lesson).

With the advice from those on this forum I havent lost a single fish in my most recent 48 gal tank which i owe due to the advice of others and a fishless cycle i was told about and learned how to do.

Your bio load is way too high right now, if u do endd up 2-3 fish left adding a pleco wouldnt be the greatest thing to do as they reach 20+ inches. Maybe a bristle nose would work, but im not sure of their coldwater capability.

 

[renosteinke]

Thank you, Ben for your reply. I have been advised to test, have heard dire warnings about levels if they get 'too high,' but no one has actually provided the numbers! I have ten days of tests now, plus another week of fish in the pool ... yet those numbers have meant little to me, as I have not had a yardstick with which to compare them.

As I write, I have 7 goldfish remaining. They are still quite tiny. Two fish have died, on different days, without any obvious correlation to test measurements. In both instances, the two dead fish were discovered immediately after a partial water change. They were not seen before the change. "Fish #10" may not have ever existed.

I chose to start with goldfish for a number of reasons - not the least because they are native to the habitat I am trying to re-create .... a midwestern pond.

I have been, on an irregular basis, removing 2-3 gallons of water, and replacing it with 3 gallons of tap water that has aired for at least 24 hours.

Now, for the numbers.....

I was surprised to see that the tap water started out with a Ph of 6, 0.25 ammonia, and 5.0 nitrate. No nitrite was found.
My first measurements, after a week of fish only, showed a major shift in Ph, to 7.6. Ammonia was 1.0, Nitrite was 0.25, and nitrate held at 5.0.
Only in the past few days has the ammonia climbed past 1.0. Even after a 3 gallon water change, the level held steady today somewhere between 2.0 and 4.0. Nitirites have increased to 0.5, and nitrates have reached 10.
Actual water temperature is 59 - so I agree that the 'cycle' may be off to a slow start. For comparison, I have had a bottle of tap water sitting around since mid-December, and it has yet to show any algae or cloudiness.

The plants - water hyacinth- seem to be hanging in there. Now, with some nitrate available, they may do better. I have been using "daylight" bulbs, and may add a special "grow light." There is also some indirect sunlight (weather permitting).

The pool is aerated by the single fountain head; the pump has been drawing through a filter for 10 days. The pump operates 16 hours per day, being off at night.

That's the information I can provide. I am most open to advice. I do realise that these things take time, so I have been trying not to 'micro manage' it.

 

[Regen311]

You have had a yardstick. I've told you several times that 1ppm is a maximum, you told me in reply that your kit said it could get up to 4ppm, and made it sound like because of that you weren't concerned. So yes, you have had a yardstick. 1ppm is too high. Any is really too high. Just because there wasn't a spike in ammonia doesn't mean your fish didn't die because of it. Ammonia levels (lower levels such as 1ppm or lower) can be toxic over time, not immediately. So your fish could have still died from ammonia poisoning. You need to be doing water changes more than irregularly. What are expecting from teh bottled water you have sitting out? It's not going to show any type of cycle since you haven't added any ammonia or anything to it and nothing will be supplying it with ammonia.

 

[tropicfishman]

I would never use my rivers water, I live right by th eOhio river lol very very nasty water lol