Journal: Restarting a Fishless Cycle (with naturally soft water).

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trennamw

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If you're new and watching this, keep in mind my cycle may go faster because I've got not only donated media now, but also because I probably had a partially cycled tank already.



After getting some great advice & donated, bacteria-laden media, I decided to start cycling my 29 gallon tank again. This time I'll document it here, in hope that it both draws suggestions and helps others repeat the process in the future.



Keep in mind my tank was already a little bit cycled, probably-maybe. I started to do so a month ago and it never really went anywhere. pH and temp were likely culprits but since I'd added a lot of things to the water (long story) I decided to start fresh.



SUPPLIES (photos and more details will be in a post below):

29 Gallon Marineland kit with heater & Penguin 200 Biowheel filter (an aside: I think this tank is worth the tiny bit of extra $ because this filter seems built for efficient cycling)



AquaClear 40 Power Head, set on "maximum bubbles" for aeration



Bottle of dechlorinator whose label says it removes chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals. This time I'm not using the dechlorinator that also has tons of other things in it for slime coat and so on.



ACE Janitorial Ammonia (10% ammonia, no other ingredients)



API Freshwater Test Kit



Pipettes marked for .5-3 ml



Donated Filter Media, and BioBalls (Thank you ThrenJen), from an established tank.



A teensy bit of phosphate (also from ThrenJen, questions about that I'll defer to her)



And because my tap water has practically no KH or GH (and because I bought them before I knew of alternatives) ... Chiclid Salts and Chiclid Buffer, and crushed coral. I don't necessarily recommend this combination, it's just what has been working for me to get the GH and KH from zero to something the bacteria and fish will like.



Concerned that something I'd put in the water in the past month was why my cycle was stalled, I emptied all of the water out of the tank (where is the thread on how to siphon out water without getting tank water in your mouth :eek:).



Sooooo .... emptied tank. Filled it back up, putting dechlorinator then water into the bucked and hauling it back to the tank. Added 3ml ammonia, and chiclid salts and buffer aimed at getting the GH up to 3 and the KH way higher.



The next step I instantly regretted, but now that it's been an hour I'm glad I did. I'd read that if you're lucky enough to get a piece of filter media from a cycled tank, dip it into your aquarium and shake it, to let all its bacterial goodness settle on all the other surfaces in the tank. This turned my water completely, scarily, brown but after an hour everything is clear again.



Then, I slipped the big piece of bacteria-laden filter media into the filter, where the water would contact it before it contacts the charcoal filter cartridge. I put the Bio balls on top and into this other little nook on the right. My crushed coral is in the bottom of the filter box.



Turned everything on, let it run awhile, then tested. Test results below.
 
Apparently the website doesn't like accepting photos from a Mac, and I can't do it from my phone in edit mode, so unfortunately the photos are not up where they're helpful ...

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396847571.543091.jpg. The ammonia. Ace hardware was the only place I could find it without extra crud.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396847625.795204.jpg donated filter media and bio balls from an established tank. The black thing is a square of that stuff that is blue when new. She cut it to the size of my filter cartridge since my filter has room.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396847740.949075.jpg Assembled. The water goes through the cultured filter media (thick black) and then the filters own cartridge (thin blue line) then onto the biowheel.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396847872.692774.jpg what I happen to Already have been using to bump up KH and GH along with crushed coral. The chichlid salts increase GH by 6* per scoop per 10 gallon and say they include minerals and trace elements. The cichlid buffer says it has borates, carbonates, and bicarbonates that increase pH and brings KH up by 8* per scoop per 10gallons.

If I feel super nerdy later I'll try to find the MSDS of the cichlid stuff so we know what's really in it.
 
Day zero testing: I'm sure the colors aren't true on screen but it'll give an indication of how they change.

Temp: 88 degrees.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396848312.979102.jpg
ammonia about 4ppm.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396848374.257422.jpg
pH 8.2 (for the bacteria; I'll shoot for lower later)

GH is 3 degrees, KH is 9. I'm hoping I recall correctly what Threnjen said, with GH of 2 or 3 and KH pretty high for the cycling period.

More tomorrow!
 
Bahahah I bet the tank looked so gross when you squeezed that in there!! That was one of my nastiest sponge bits :p
 
It was soooooo gross! I tried to take a pic but it's not worth posting because you can't see anything, just black. Crystal clear today though!!

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396927584.708005.jpg
 
Ok so this isn't what I expected, last time the pH and KH were stable and today I have quite a drop.

GH is still 3.

KH is 8.

pH ... I did both API tests (regular and high range) and would say it's between 7.4-7.6.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396927950.237262.jpg
Ok the photo isn't helpful but it's cool how the flash turned it all neon!

Ammonia is the same (new on the right). Unless I squint sideways and hold my breath, in which case it's a tiny bit lighter. The color doesn't keep changing so I think I'll start keeping the last test to compare ... The API test can be really hard to read. You have to be very consistent about the lighting and how far above the paper you hold it.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396928153.876510.jpg

Tank temp is 88. I'm still turning my thermostat knob slowly to figure out where the mid 80s are.

Threnjen I forget what temp you suggested?

I don't have baking soda still, or at least none that I'm sure didn't get laundry detergent spilled in. Gonna dose a touch with the cichlid buffer to bring pH up.

The pH and KH really puzzles me. I used the same amount of chichlid buffer as before but twice as much coral is in there now (does coral affect KH? Must look that up). Last time I had GH at 7 though. Maybe using less cichlid salt somehow affected the KH and pH. Or it just wasn't all dissolved. Or it's a very different situation using a dechlorinator that doesn't have stuff for slime coat. Or the lack of salt this time ... None of those make sense though. Hmm.
 
Oh. I'm a dork. I'd written down KH was 11 last night but I see it was 9. Not so different. Think I'll let it all be for another day before adding anything.

And omGoodness!!!!!!!! I was going to do a baseline nitrite test to show how nothing is happening yet and ...... Its at least .5ppm already !!

Gonna test the nitrates too then post. Threnjen there would be any reason the nitrates are stowaways right? You mentioned your tank cycles so well you have to add nitrites.
 
ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1396930572.302672.jpg

And that, my friends, is the miracle of having people share their good bacteria with you.

Nitrite is about .5 and nitrate 5.0.

Guess that explains the pH situation. Gonna add a bit after all to bring that back up.

Funny the ammonia doesn't seem to have changed much. Maybe I didn't squint hard enough.
 
Wow!!!!!!!!! 48 hours after restarting with donated "dirty" filter media ...

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1397011703.967294.jpg

Ammonia down by more than half. Looks about 1.5 ppm.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1397011760.504019.jpg

Nitrite increased tenfold overnight. Now 5ppm if not more.

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1397011831.928881.jpg

Nitrate up 4-5x since yesterday. Looks to be 20ppm or more.

PH is about 8, GH and KH unchanged (3 and 9 drops respectively).

Spent the day daydreaming about running a tank with a bunch of filters and no fish all the time, and gravel in filter socks, to jump start other beginners' fishless cycles!
 
I just reviewed the process I'd forgotten not only ammonia but nitrite has to disappear, so might not be this weekend for fish, but soon! Which is good because now I can't decide what to get. Gonna have to visit LFS again this weekend to browse and come home with research. The dwarf loaches I want are not just expensive but highly endangered so I don't like that idea.
 
ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1397095782.772186.jpg

Wow!!!!!

Ammonia is gone!!! Afterward I did add about 3ml (which, in 29 gal, is about 3 ppm).

Nitrites are too high to say, and nitrates are 40-80 ppm.

Not bad for 3 days!!

I imagine much of the success is that I started with a huge piece of super "dirty" filter media, exactly the size of my filter cartridge, so the water is all having to go through that before it touches my filter cartridge or biowheel.

The filter smelled like a still but clean pond, and now the whole tank smells like that. Or like when we caught trout as a kid. The bottled bacteria made the tank smell sorta stinky, so I'm curious if I've got a better bacteria population.
 
Huh. Well that's interesting. Last night I dosed ammonia back up to 3-4 ppm (and tested to confirm).

Now ...
ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1397187389.023149.jpg

Looks like I have a LOT of ammonia to nitrite going on and a little less nitrite to nitrate.

Nitrites continue to climb and nitrate hasn't changed since yesterday.

I read somewhere that the two bacterias have different ideal pH ... But I'm sure the second stage will catch up.

I also knocked the aide tube off the power head this morning so it spent about 12 hours with a lot less oxygen.

There's also weird stuff floating in the water, looks like tiny threads?

Not gonna worry about it tonight, just going to feed my bacteria with another 4ppm ammonia and wait for things to level out.
 
You should stop dosing so much ammonia and just do 2ppm every 3-4 days.


Ooooh! Ok! I'd seen you write on another thread it's done when you can convert 3-4ppm in 24 hours. So do I dose less for now and then Do a larger dose later to test that it's complete?

Are the little thready things floating around normal? I was afraid the gravel I used about a month ago had something in it that just hat hatched.
 
Yes, right now you have the ammonia able to handle 4ppm in 24 hours, so now it's just time to let the nitrites portion catch up.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
Not much change today, nitrite above the limit of the test I expect. Ammonia disappeared. Nitrate testing lower but that test is a real PITA and my toddler wasn't interested in spending a long time shaking bottle #2 for me. So it is probably a bad test.

PH dropped, tested that 3 times and it's about 7.5. KH is 6. So a little more chichlid buffer (overpriced baking soda) until I run out and learn more about crushed coral v buffer for water with no buffering capacity.

The weird thready things are still in there too. Hmm. Very tiny, looks the way dust does if you smack a pillow in a stream of sunlight.
 
DAY 7

I have read that a pwc at this point often helps makes tests easier to read, but a water change just for that reason didn't appeal to me. I'd gotten distilled water to help check my GH and KH (more in that below) so I diluted my tank water down to 10%.

So my nitrites are probably actually about 20 ppm, and my nitrates about 100 ppm.

I read a long article on the various bacteria too, later I'll reread it and adjust the pH and temp to favor the nitrite to nitrate bacteria. This is the second place I've read the two bacterias have different preferences.

Dosed more buffer last night to get pH back up, it's 8.2.

Since my tap water in the API GH and KH tests turns color at one drop I was curious what the numbers really are. Today the LFS told me again my water is soft even for Portland.

I diluted the tap water to 10% also and it still tests at 1 drop. So my tap water is 0.1 degrees KH and GH or less (1.7 ppm or less).

I'm beginning to think a bottle of distilled water may be a good bet for cycling, as you can get an accurate read without a water change. And it's more precise than diluting a tank whose exact volume is hard to know. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding something here.

Gonna dose ammonia back up to 2ppm and reread that article about the bacterias ...




ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1397352196.019313.jpg
(Nitrite and nitrate diluted to 10% tank water 90% distilled)

Oh. Maybe I should do a pwc just to make it easier to tell when my tank is established enough? Is it possible I have enough nitrite to nitrate bacteria already but I've given them too much nitrite? (Because I kept dosing 4ppm ammonia after it disappeared the first time?
 
Can't find the article I wanted to go back to. But did find another that says nitrospiras (the nitrite to nitrate bacteria) grow at only 50% their usual rate if ammonia is above .7 ppm.

Bacteria in the Freshwater Aquarium

And that the ammonia to nitrite bacteria grow fastest at pH of 8.3 and 86 degrees F. But I already have plenty of them. Growth is 50% at pH of 7, which is where I was on my first cycle I think.

I also found this really interesting: "Fortunately, in acidic water (pH below 7.0) ammonia automatically ionizes into ammonium which is basically harmless. And since nitrite will not be produced when the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria are in “hibernation,” this decrease in their effectiveness poses no immediate danger to the fish and other life forms."

If this is true it may explain why my betta has been doing so well since I started letting the pH in his tank be 6.5 (and why I never see nitrites or nitrates). But if that is true why do we treat ammonia as such a universal problem when many community fish can deal with that lower pH as long as it's stable? But it sounds too good to be true. And I'm not sure how reliable the article and its resources are.
 
That article gets a vote of "terrible" because it fails to establish and explain the difference between Ammonium NH4 and Free Ammonia NH3.


Any scientific paper that studies the inhibition of nitrospira are focused on Free Ammonia NH3 which is present in only a very small percentage of your ammonia reading. The writer of the article on the forum either did not understand this or did not realize the papers were referring to NH3 (I have read a lot of scientific papers on this topic as well and seen his references)
For there to be NH3 level of .7ppm in an aquarium with neutral 7.0 pH and 25C, you would have to have an ammonia reading on the API test of 123ppm. No joke.

Also "nitrite will not be produced when the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria are in “hibernation;"
Why would they be in hibernation? No. That's just flat out wrong. NOB will uptake either NH3 or NH4. The ammonia being in ammonium form does not stop nitrification. Maybe I misunderstood their context.

There are two forms of ammonia that are present in your aquarium with any positive ammonia test reading. These two forms are Free Ammonia NH3, which is very toxic to your fish, and Ammonium NH4 which is non-toxic. The sum of these two forms (NH3 + NH4) represent your aquarium’s Total Ammonia Nitrogen, abbreviated as TAN.

When people talk about “ammonia readings” on a forum or elsewhere, they are almost always referring to a TAN reading. All of the most popular tests, including the API Master Freshwater Test Kit, API Strips, and Tetra Strips are testing for TAN, meaning they are providing the sum total of both the toxic ammonia and non-toxic ammonia forms. So if you get a reading of 1.0 ppm Ammonia, that is 1.0 ppm TAN and some of that is Free Ammonia NH3 and the rest of it is Ammonium NH4. This means that only a portion of your overall ammonia reading is toxic to your fish.

ir
The amount of toxic Free Ammonia NH3 is determined entirely by your aquarium’s pH and temperature and represents only a small percentage of your TAN. Ammonia becomes ammonium instantly and vice versa as the ammonia molecules become ionized or deionized as the pH/temp fluctuate. Your percentage of toxic ammonia increases with both pH and Temperature.
Free ammonia NH3 poisons your fish with prolonged exposure to 0.02ppm or higher, and is actively harmful and causing gill burn at levels of .05ppm.

This excellent forum post has my favorite chart to determine your level of toxic ammonia. Some math is required, so grab your calculator.
Use the chart to find your pH and tank temperature. Now take that number, and multiply it by your ppm ammonia reading. This is the amount of toxic ammonia in your tank in ppm. If you’re under .02ppm Free Ammonia NH3, your fish are going to be fine. If over .02, I would suggest a water change. Remember that your factor will change if your temperature or pH change, with your toxic ammonia increasing if temp or pH go up. In a case of emergency, temporarily lowering your temperature by a degree or two can make a big difference in your ammonia toxicity.
Calculating The Toxicity Of Ammonia In Freshwater - Tropical Discussion - Tropical Fish Forums

One important thing to know is that the beneficial bacteria will eat EITHER NH3 or NH4. BOTH forms are “food” and will continue your cycle. Scientifically the bacteria does not care or distinguish (much) between them. It will eat the NH3 first, but in the absence of NH3 it will eat NH4. So there is no need to aim for a specific free ammonia percentage for cycling purposes.
 
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