Long long story

[nataliedd]

Not wanting to make things confusing for anyone, but have you checked to see how hard the water is ? Hardness is different from pH.. though often higher pH goes with hard water.
Hard water isn't as suited for tetras as it is for some other species, like danios or rasboras. Tetras may adapt to harder water but it's not ideal for them. Most live bearing fish do well in hard water though.

But first, for sure, you need to be certain the tank has cycled. If I go back to check, I'll lose this bit, so did you have plants in the tank ? If not, they can help speed up a cycle, and also use up nitrates when nitrates appear. A few easy low light plants would be a good addition. Anubias or java fern or java moss are the standard low light plants, and there are others as well.

I am not sure if the API master kit has the GH and KH test in it or not, but that is how you test for hard water. GH means general hardness, KH means carbonate hardness. It's not the easiest thing to understand if you aren't into chemistry, but GH is roughly about the amount of calcium and magnesium in the water, while KH is about carbonates in the water. Magnesium and calcium [ or lime] are the two minerals most associated with hard water, the ones that make scale in the kettle or coffee maker. If you do have hard water, the advice earlier to use a pH down product would not work because the carbonates in hard water resist the change..and you get what another poster mentioned, with the pH going up & down and stressing the poor fish badly.

Unless you want to put in an RO filter system on the house water and then adjust that water to suit your fish, it's best to keep fish that are suited to the kind of water you have from the tap.

Don't have plants yet, I know they are better to have than plastic but are thoughts were to grasp caring for fish first before throwing in caring for plants.

I've never heard about testing for GH and KH, is this something I need to do??

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[nataliedd]

Just to toss more into the confusion ...

I live near the largest freshwater fish store in America. They've also tended to give the best advice. I routinely hear them giving good instructions in fishless and fish in cycling.

Anyway. Their 2 cents on pH is ... Don't even use the API test. Use one for hydroponics that shows 3-10 in large increments.

I'm not saying to buy another test. I'm using an example of not even testing more specifically than 6, 7, 7,5, and 8. They use this test in their own tanks, and they house many sensitive species.

Their recommendation to me, as I sweated pH problems, was "keep it stable somewhere between 6.5 and 8 for all the fish in this room (their showroom with community fish) ... Get more specific with the fish in the other showroom" (sensitive cichlids, discus, eels, rays ...).

My fish stopped dieing when I stopped intervening so much with pH. Now I know my big tank is between 7.5 and 8, and my betta is around 7. I don't know the numbers, I know the specific shade of green each needs to stay in. Same water for both, they each have a different

Are all the sick fish out of the main tank?


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So basically I shouldn't worry to much about what my average PH is and il just stick with fish that are best suited towards this number of PH?

We had to give back our borrowed quarantine tank so we don't have one at the min. We have one molly who appears to be sic, it's kinda swimming straight up the way rather than on its side. and one molly died last night (we had to put it down cos it was obvious it was really struggling and appeared on its last legs). So basically all other fish seem fine and normal, it's just been the mollys who are affected.

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[nataliedd]

Just to toss more into the confusion .....

Sorry my phone was playing up and didn't realise I that first response to this was sent successfully

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[nataliedd]

Run the full range of tests on your tap water. It is very common for well water to have nitrates in it, and also common for municipal supplies to have chloramines in it. Chloramines test positive for ammonia in the API 2 bottle test kit. Compare tap water to tank water.

I'm sorry for appearing stupid but I don't really understand this. I've never heard of chloramine?


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[nataliedd]

Ok so here is today's readings after another water change.......

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[nataliedd]

So nitrites still 0,nitrates raised slightly to 5 and amnonia seems between the 0 and the 0.25. Gonna test tap water........

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[trennamw]

So basically I shouldn't worry to much about what my average PH is and il just stick with fish that are best suited towards this number of PH?

We had to give back our borrowed quarantine tank so we don't have one at the min. We have one molly who appears to be sic, it's kinda swimming straight up the way rather than on its side. and one molly died last night (we had to put it down cos it was obvious it was really struggling and appeared on its last legs). So basically all other fish seem fine and normal, it's just been the mollys who are affected.

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Stick with fish that are good with a pH in the sevens. Typical beginner fish.

Then do pay attention to whether your pH changes. And by change I mean big changes ... not a change of .2 over two weeks.

Mollies are problematic beginner fish. I wouldn't buy any more till you have very stable water.

Chloramine is another chemical some cities put in water. If yours does, it can throw off your ammonia reading. And if you do, it's important you use a dechlorinator that also gets rid of chloramines.



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[trennamw]

It's hard to tell but that ammonia test looks good to me. Does it only show a faint tinge of green from a certain angle?

I'm also thinking your pH is 7.4. But that one is really hard to read from across the world


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[nataliedd]

Oh the above results were after a 30% w/c.. ...Prob should have tested it before but we've been doing a w/c most days this week

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[nataliedd]

So here's the tap water results.....its hard to tell by photo but I used the normal PH bottle and it's came up the highest colour on that column for +7.6. The amnonia is between 0-0.25, nitrite 0 and nitrates between 0- 5

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[nataliedd]

It's hard to tell but that ammonia test looks good to me. Does it only show a faint tinge of green from a certain angle?

I'm also thinking your pH is 7.4. But that one is really hard to read from across the world


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Yes it's hard to tell, somewhere in the middle I think cos it's not a block yellow colour as on the chart. So from your experience what do you think has been the problem and my mollys behaviour, is this typical from raised amnonia or possibly another reason? Do you think I'm still cycling? Sorry so many questions......I have ordered book recommended from amazon so maybe il haves less and less questions.

Sorry for appearing clueless I'm just trying to understand why I've had fish deaths so I can rectify problems

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[Fishfur]

Lots of people have some trouble with comparative colour charts. One thing to do is always read the test by the same lighting and the best light you have. If you have a 6500 K bulb anywhere, [ over the tank, it's the best for plants].. that's a good one to read tests under. In sunlight is another good way to read them.

Everybody has to start somewhere so don't worry about asking a lot of questions, though of course doing your own research is always a good thing.

A cycle is usually completed when you get tests that say Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate <20 ppm. Most of us try to keep nitrate from getting over 20 if possible, though it's said to be safe up to 50 ppm. I prefer safe over sorry.

If you do have chloramines in the water, they read as ammonia. In fact, they are not some special chemical, rather, they are what you get when the water company adds ammonia and chlorine to water. The combination is chloramine and it lasts much longer than chlorine alone does. So municipal water companies often add ammonia. A good reason to test any source water so you know what is in it to begin with.

pH from the tap often goes down a bit after 24 hours or so. Some advise leaving a container of tap water out for 24 hours, and if possible, with an air stone running in it, and then testing pH. Whatever pH value you get after 24 hours is most likely what you'd have in the tank.

You don't have to test for GH or KH.. I like to do it so I know roughly what they are though. Mostly what they tell you is if your water is hard or soft. If you get a lot of scale in the kettle or coffee maker, you have hard water, which is pretty common to have.

 

[TomK2]

Chloramine and chlorine are used as disinfectants for municipal water supplies.

Chlorine is a dissolved gas required in higher concentrations, dissipates easily, and will be different concentrations depending on how far away from the treatment facility you are.

Chloarmine is chlorine bound to ammonia (monochloramine). It does not have to be in as high a concentration as chlorine, does not dissipate easily so its concentration is easier to control and is more consistent throughout the distribution system.

You need a water treatment to make chloramine non toxic for aquariums, if you let chlorine water sit out overnight (or quicker with an airstone running in it) the chlorine gas will escape from the water. I have chlorinated water, all I do is fill up a holding tank and run an airstone while a heater in the bottom brings it to tank temp. No additives necessary.

The AP two bottle test for ammonia first adds chlorine from bottle one to turn ammonia into chloramine, then the second bottle turns color depending on the amount of chloramine created. Therefore, if your tap water has chloramine in it ,(usually low levels), you can detect it.

Looking at your pics, it seems the reading is zero for ammonia and chloramines in your tap water to my eye. You should look at it and say "hey its got green in there," not have to hold it a certain way near the chart and kinda think it might have some. The test tube is always a lighter different yellow not as "thick?" and consistent as the chart. But honestly, your tank sample is a bit in the shadow and I could not tell, it did look a bit green but I am not sure. Looks to me like you have nitrates in your tap water.

So, the nitrates might be from your tap. And if there is ammonia in your tank, then your tank is still establishing a biofilter and is not cycled?

 

[Fishfur]

From what I understand, even chloramine will gas out, but it takes longer, because it is less volatile than chlorine is. But if you don't mind leaving water to age for a week or so, and with an airstone works better than without, you can skip using agents like Prime to remove chlorine or chloramine. But that can be a lot of water to have sitting out if you have a few or large tanks.

 

[nataliedd]

QUOTE
Everybody has to start somewhere so don't worry about asking a lot of questions, though of course doing your own research is always a good thing.

A cycle is usually completed when you get tests that say Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate <20 ppm. Most of us try to keep nitrate from getting over 20 if possible, though it's said to be safe up to 50 ppm. I prefer safe over sorry. "

I research as much as possible but there are certain things confuse me or conflict so the best place is this forum for advice based on experience. I appreciate all the help. Infact if I didnt live in northern ireland, so far away id def be sending some bouquets! LOL

This is the part I dont understand.....ive had 0 nitrites and 0 ammonia together but my nitrate has never seemed to go much past 5. So dont know whether im cycled or not. Im not going off to buy anymore fish til things have settled for a good while but I still think its important to know if im cycled. What do you think? Also nitratres being low isnt a bad thing is it?


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[nataliedd]

The AP two bottle test for ammonia first adds chlorine from bottle one to turn ammonia into chloramine, then the second bottle turns color depending on the amount of chloramine created. Therefore, if your tap water has chloramine in it ,(usually low levels), you can detect it.

So, the nitrates might be from your tap. And if there is ammonia in your tank, then your tank is still establishing a biofilter and is not cycled?

Thanks for explanation, so the AP 2 bottle ammonia test kit youve mentioned is this a separate kit I should buy outside of my basic water testing kit?

Yeah I think if im questioning it so much im probably still cycling i just thought that after 9 weeks and steady water tests of 0 for amnonia and nitrite that i was
Il just keep testing and water changing til i see steady readings for a sustained period , hoping for no more fish deaths!

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[Fishfur]

Low nitrate is never a bad thing; unless maybe you have a lot of live plants, because they consume nitrates as food but even then, easily supplemented with some fertilizer.

And it can be confusing at first. I still don't have a complete grasp on water chemistry, despite a few years of reading a lot of articles on it. Though every time someone explains something, if I'm fortunate I may learn something, or come to more clearly understand something.

In your tank you have live fish, so they are certainly producing ammonia. When you test, you are seeing some nitrites, so you at least have a start on the bacteria that turn ammonia to nitrite. And you've seen some nitrate on tests, so you have at least a start on the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. Maybe you don't quite enough of both, or not enough of one, just yet.

Since the results aren't consistent, I think perhaps you are not quite fully cycled yet. Close, very close, but not quite there. Cycles sometimes don't go quite as expected, but typically, first you get ammonia, then you get nitrite, which can often rise very high, and then a bit later you get nitrate, which can also rise quite high. But some folks have found they get nitrite and nitrate almost at the same time.. some never see high levels of anything. I don't think it's possible to know every variable that might affect a given cycle, since the conditions are not controlled, as they might be in, say, a laboratory.

If I understand what you've said so far you are not seeing high levels of nitrite or of nitrate. So perhaps it's just a matter of some more time, for the BB to grow more and become more established. Once they are well established, you should see 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and a level of nitrate that's reasonable, < 20, every time you test.

If you don't do regular water changes,nitrate levels normally start to go up, and then you have to change water to bring them down to safe levels. But having them on the low side most of the time is not bad at all. Most of us who keep plants end up fertilizing them with something eventually anyway, if we want them looking fairly good. Fish waste alone isn't always enough to keep some plants happy, but of course, depends on the type of plant and how many of them there are.

 

[nataliedd]

From what I understand, even chloramine will gas out, but it takes longer, because it is less volatile than chlorine is. But if you don't mind leaving water to age for a week or so, and with an airstone works better than without, you can skip using agents like Prime to remove chlorine or chloramine. But that can be a lot of water to have sitting out if you have a few or large tanks.

In an ideal world that sounds good, especially seeing as some of the agent's are so expensive, adding it several times a week with these more frequent w/c's to a 340 litre tank we go through prime like nobodys business! But unfortunately weve no more space and only the one big tank. This fish keeping hobbie is great but very expensive! My kids better grow up appreciating it! Lol

Ps im sorry for messing up previous response, I sent it before I realised I deleted too much

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[Fishfur]

I can recall my Mom being a bit annoyed at the bucket of water I had to leave out to age, back when I kept fish in high school. That was one bucket, one 29G tank.. and the bucket was in the utility room, not underfoot in the kitchen or something.

So I can completely understand not keeping a large amount of water around just to save on dechlorinator. When I was in high school no such thing existed.. I was so pleased to find it did exist when I got back into fish keeping again.

But you know, I have a bunch of bottles of water sitting around anyway.. 2 x 10 litres, about 8 x 4 litres, and that's because if I fill those and leave them for a day or two, I can change water without having to try to equalize temperature. No heaters in the tank, so room temp water is just right. I hate having to let water run just to get warm water up to the tenth floor, it's wasteful, and it's not always so easy to get the temp right anyway.

I leave the bottles along the walls and under furniture so it's not really in the way. I put a bit of Prime in each container, because I seal the bottles, to prevent spills and also to stop my cat from drinking from them. She's not above dipping her paw in and licking water off it, she can lower the level by a few inches that way, silly old cat. The water in them can't offgas with sealed lids.. and I don't want Ms. Matty drinking Prime either.

Mother, may she rest in peace, would not be keen on my solution .

 

[trennamw]

I think you are cycled to some degree at least.

So you have both sets of bacteria in residence, the question is whether there are enough to deal with all the ammonia being generated. I'd say you can start backing off on the water changes but test daily.

Then try to keep nitrates below 20, and do a water change if you see ammonia and nitrite.

I have never kept mollies, I so often read they're not really for beginners and get sick easily. I've been keeping fish healthy for only 9 months or so, so I stick with fish not known for getting sick.

So if your tank is cycled, what do you feel is the next most urgent problem?


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