maybe stalled fishless cycle

[regulardrake]

All right this going to be a long one. I am a little worried I maybe stalled my fishless cycle. This is my first temp at fishless cycling and I have been following this guide.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/the-almost-complete-guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html

Tank size is a 37G Tall.

On 9/14/14 is when I started my cycle.
Test results for start was
Ammonia - 4.0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 0 ppm
PH - 7.8

Tested the ammonia level every couple of days with same results.

On 9/22/14 is when I noticed the ammonia was starting to drop and test results for that day was
Ammonia - 2.0 PPM
Nitrite - 1.0 PPM
Nitrate - 10 PPM
PH - 7.8

On 9/23/14 results where
Ammonia - .50 PPM
Nitrite - 2.0 PPM
Nitrate - 40 PPM
PH - 7.8
and I dosed Ammonia back up to 4.0 PPM.

On 9/24/14 results where
Ammonia - 1.0 PPM
Nitrite - 5.0 PPM
Nitrate - 80 PPM
PH - 7.8
and dosed ammonia back up to 4.0 PPM.

This is where I think I maybe stalled the cycle. 9/25/14 the results where
Ammonia - 1.0 PPM
Nitrite - 5.0 PPM (Pretty much purple on the 5 drop of nitrite solution. Which I think that is a sign Nitrite are though the roof.)
Nitrate - Maybe 80 PPM (Having a hard time reading this one its not as red as 160 but its still pretty red)
PH - 7.6 (Starting to drop at this point)
Dosed ammonia back up to 4.0 PPM and I probably should of did a 50% water change here. But like a dumb *** I didn't.

9/26/14 results
Ammonia - 1.0 PPM
Nitrite - still 5.0 PPM
Nitrate - still 80 PPM
PH - 7.3
Dosed ammonia back up to 4.0 PPM.

9/27/14 results
Ammonia 1.0 PPM
Nitrite - 5.0 PPM
Nitrate - 80 PPM
PH - 6.8
Dosed ammonia back up to 4.0 PPM.

9/28/14 results
Ammonia 1.0 PPM
Nitrite - 5.0 PPM
Nitrate - 80 PPM
PH - 6.4
Dosed ammonia back up to 4.0 PPM.

Today 9/29/14 results where
Ammonia 2.0 PPM
Nitrite - 5.0 PPM
Nitrate - 80 PPM
PH - 6.2

I did a 60% water change to try and bring the Nitrite and Nitrate to a readable level. 20 mins after water change the results where
Ammonia .50 PPM
Nitrite - 5.0 PPM
Nitrate - 80 PPM
PH - 7.3

Deiced to wait a couple of hours and test the water one last time and the results are
Ammonia - 0 PPM
Nitrite - 5.0 PPM
Nitrate - 80 PPM
PH - 6.8

I don't like that my PH is dropping within two hours of a water change and I am worried that my PH has crashed and it stalled the cycle or the Nitrite and Nitrate are though the roof and that stalled the cycle also. So does it look like I stalled my cycle or is this normal? I am going to skip adding Ammonia tonight and do another 60% water change tomorrow to see if the Nitrite and Nitrate drop to a readable level.

 

[Masha]

This looks fairly normal.
Getting a huge nitrite spike like that at this stage common, especially if you dose such high ammonia levels. I know that guide says to dose to 4ppm, but that does result in huge nitrite spikes at this stage of the cycle.

Water changes should fix the pH dropping. Try to keep it above 6, which is the pH at which the bacteria will stop duplicating. This is normal during a cycle, as the bacteria are duplicating at a much higher rate than they normally would in a cycled tank, and using up the buffers in the water, which causes the pH to crash.

You will find you will need to do several ENORMOUS water changes to keep the nitrites within a readable range. High nitrites could stall a cycle, so it's worth doing them.

But above all, at this stage, I would drop the amount of ammonia you are dosing to at least 2ppm. That's plenty of ammonia to create a full cycle, and it will help reduce those nitrite spikes.

I'm not sure how you are adding the ammonia, but I found that it helps a lot, at this stage, to get really accurate about it. I used a syringe, which helped me know exactly how much I added.

 

[Caliban07]

Yeh I think this is where the fishless guide falls down. There has to be a point where you either stop adding ammonia or significantly reduce the amount or frequency of dosing.

I think of it as constantly adding coal to a steam train, it's just not going to stop in a hurry. Cut the supply and let it stop.

I'm agree with Masha. You will have to do multiple water changes now to get nitrites to a readable level. I would then let the nitrites peter out and dose probably 1ppm ammonia from then on.


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[regulardrake]

I think of it as constantly adding coal to a steam train, it's just not going to stop in a hurry. Cut the supply and let it stop.

haha yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing but I am a computer nerd so I was thinking more along the lines of man I think I am stuck in a do while loop

I'm not sure how you are adding the ammonia, but I found that it helps a lot, at this stage, to get really accurate about it. I used a syringe, which helped me know exactly how much I added.

I have been using a 5ml syringe and this website for a ammonia calculator.

Calculator

I didn't have time this morning to check everything but I did check the ph and this morning it was at 6.4. I am going to keep doing water changes each night until I get the nitrites down to a readable level. Should I do enough water changes to get to 0 ppm or should I go to about .50 ppm and then let them disappear on their own?

Now for ph should I make a baking soda solution with tank water and slow add two mils at a time until I get it around 7 range or not worry about it and just focus on getting the nitrites down with water changes?

 

[Caliban07]

haha yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing but I am a computer nerd so I was thinking more along the lines of man I think I am stuck in a do while loop







I have been using a 5ml syringe and this website for a ammonia calculator.



Calculator



I didn't have time this morning to check everything but I did check the ph and this morning it was at 6.4. I am going to keep doing water changes each night until I get the nitrites down to a readable level. Should I do enough water changes to get to 0 ppm or should I go to about .50 ppm and then let them disappear on their own?



Now for ph should I make a baking soda solution with tank water and slow add two mils at a time until I get it around 7 range or not worry about it and just focus on getting the nitrites down with water changes?

The water changes will stabilise ph. Don't bring nitrites to 0ppm bring them to the next readable level below 5 and let them disappear on their own. Don't add ammonia until the nitrites are gone then add a smaller amount say 2ppm.


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[regulardrake]

The water changes will stabilise ph. Don't bring nitrites to 0ppm bring them to the next readable level below 5 and let them disappear on their own. Don't add ammonia until the nitrites are gone then add a smaller amount say 2ppm.

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Ok thanks I will go that route then. I will aim for about 4 to 2ppm of nitrites and then let the disappear on their own. During lunch hour I did test my water and nothing really changed from last night test results around midnight.

Ammonia - 0 PPM
Nitrites - 5.0 PPM
Nitrates - I think still 80 PPM (Its pretty red having a hard time telling if it is 160 PPM or 80 PPM.)
Ph - 6.6 (So it did go down a little bit from this morning)

Thanks for your help and I will keep you guys posted here in a few days when I start back up on low dose of Ammonia.

 

[regulardrake]

Just giving an update. Hopefully I am still on the right track.

On 10/1/14 did huge water change. Probably around the 80% mark. Finally I was able to see nitrites on the chart and they where around the 2.0 ppm mark.

Ammonia - 0 PPM
Nitrites - 2.0 PPM
Nitrates - 20 PPM
PH - 7.3

Didn't add any Ammonia that night and was going to wait until Nitrites vanished on their own. Next morning tested the water and the results where

10/2/14
Ammonia - 0 PPM
Nitrite - 0 PPM
Nitrates - 0 PPM
php - 6.8

I hope I didn't screw up and took out too much water. Anyway dosed Ammoina back up to 2.0 PPM.

10/3/14
Ammoina - 0PPM
Nitrite - .50 PPM
Nitrate - 5.0 PPM
PH - 6.8
(Dosed Ammoina back to 2.0PPM)

10/4/14
Ammoina - 0PPM
Nitrite - 0 PPM
Nitrate - 0 PPM
PH - 6.8
(Dosed Ammoina back to 2.0PPM)

10/5/14
Ammoina - 0PPM
Nitrite - .50 PPM
Nitrate - 5.0 PPM
PH - 6.7
(Dosed Ammoina back to 2.0PPM)

10/6/14
Ammoina - 0PPM
Nitrite - 1.0PPM
Nitrate - 10 PPM
PH - 6.6
(Did a 50% water change since I noticed the PH was droping again)
Two Hours after water change
Ammoina - 0PPM
Nitrite - 0PPM
Nitrate - 0PPM
PH - 7.3
(Dosed Ammoina back to 2.0PPM)

10/7/14
Ammoina - 0PPM
Nitrite - .50PPM
Nitrate - 5.0 PPM
PH - 6.7
(Dosed Ammoina back to 2.0PPM)

10/8/14 (not quite 24 hours yet)
Ammoina - .50 PPM
Nitrite - 1.0 PPM
Nitrate - 5.0 PPM
ph - 6.7

So did I goof and shouldn't have done a water change on the 6th?

 

[PB_Smith]

you should just leave it alone for a week, then do a 75% water change and go buy some fish.
The tank is cycled as much as it is going to be doing fishless.
Just what are you expecting to happen at this point?
According to your test results, everything is doing exactly what it should.
If you keep adding ammonia you will keep seeing nitrite spikes and will be a puppy chasing it's own tail.
The discrepancies in the nitrate readings are probably from not mixing the reagents up for long enough, common error.

Leave it alone for a week, do a good water change and add fish and begin to enjoy the tank instead of agonizing over it.

and don't worry about ph and crap until you have livestock in there and are done with the ammonia dosing, because until then and as long as you keep futzing around with it, you will never get a good picture of what the ph actually is. Another good reason to leave it alone for a week.


This is not directed at the OP, but I often have wondered at the logic many adopt when doing a fishless cycle.
It seems as if the second there are any type of elevated readings, folks are changing huge volumes of water.

WHY?
It isn't helping the fish in a fishless cycle and actually slows down the entire process because you keep removing the very nutrients that the bacteria need to get colonies established.

Completely illogical in my mind.

 

[dalto]

This is not directed at the OP, but I often have wondered at the logic many adopt when doing a fishless cycle.
It seems as if the second there are any type of elevated readings, folks are changing huge volumes of water.

WHY?
It isn't helping the fish in a fishless cycle and actually slows down the entire process because you keep removing the very nutrients that the bacteria need to get colonies established.

Completely illogical in my mind.

There are a couple of reasons to do a water change. The first is overdosing of ammonia. Sometimes people misunderstand the process and just keep adding ammonia and end up with so much ammonia it actually stalls the cycle.

The second reason is to increase KH that has been consumed due to the fishless cycle. A water change is not the only way to solve this problem but it is an easy way.

IMO, the place the guide breaks down is telling people to dose 4ppm of ammonia at all. I am not sure why you need to build such a large bio-filter but even if you did want to build it I think it is more effective to start out small and grow the size of the biofilter at the end of the cycle. 1-2ppm of ammonia should be plenty to start the cycle. Because people are trying to build these unreasonably large bio-filters is the reason the KH is consumed in the first place.

 

[Masha]

I don't like contradicting others, but I don't agree with PB Smith's post.

There are different ways of cycling tanks, all great and good, but one thing which probably wont work is changing your method in mid stream. This is a fishless cycle, let's not change it into a fish-in cycle right near the end.

The OP is experiencing a perfectly normal fishless cycle progress, which typically has a big nitrite spike near the end. Nitrites will reduce to 0 once enough of the nitrite processing bacteria has colonised the tank and filter media.

Reasons for doing those water changes, and measure ph? As Dalto says, because the bacteria use a huge amount of the resources in the water to duplicate themselves, and this can make ph drop to the point where those resources are no longer available and stall the cycle. I've also read that very high nitrite levels can slow the duplication of the nitrite processing bacteria (which seems counter intuitive, but hey!) I have no idea if that is true, but I've seen many threads in which people report that bringing down nitrite levels has helped to complete the cycle.

Totally agree with Dalto about the 4ppm ammonia thing. No reason to dose that high. I wish we could edit that guide!

 

[Caliban07]

A while back. Me and threnjen decided that the fishless cycling guide was causing more problems than it should.

We looked in to the cycling process inside out and then once more. If you do the fishless cycle sensibly you can almost set you clock by what values you should see rise and when +- a day or two.

Threnjen was adamant that you could add 16ppm ammonia and just leave it right through the cycle. We decided to add baking soda (I say we, she did all the work) and crushed fish food when ever the ph began to fall. The fish food was for phosphates as I've read articles on lack of phosphates stalling nitrospira/Bacter. 'Phosphate block'

I told thren that you would have to do water changes with the way the cycling guide is written at the moment due to the things that Dalto picked up on but she was trying to make the cycle stress free and less work (I don't blame her)

Her tank didn't cycle. Ammonia at 4ppm is a joke. You do in fact end up chasing your own tail and it is at no fault of the person just starting out. There is no guide to say when to expect rises and falls and there is no emphasis on just how patient you have to be.

Op dose to 2ppm and leave the tank for 3 days. Let the nitrates rise to a level that indicates a completed cycle. As PB states. Make sure you mix the nitrate tester properly and leave it for at least 20mins.


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[PB_Smith]

I don't like contradicting others, but I don't agree with PB Smith's post.

There are different ways of cycling tanks, all great and good, but one thing which probably wont work is changing your method in mid stream. This is a fishless cycle, let's not change it into a fish-in cycle right near the end.

It's ok, most folks here don't agree with what I suggest, but I have been doing this for over forty years and I do have a pretty darn good handle on the whole thing.


and just who suggested he change methods mid-stream?

If you notice by looking at his readings and the timelines, his tank IS cycled, it's done, finished, finito, no longer in need of ammonia dosing.

That is what my post is saying. The tank is cycled, let it settle down for a week, do a big water change and then start adding fish.


Let me ask you Masha and Dalto, what else are you guys expecting the OP to see that indicates his tank is cycled??????????????

 

[Masha]

No nitrites

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[PB_Smith]

No nitrites

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Oh Geez! *sigh*

As long as a person continues to dump raw ammonia into the tank, they will see nitrite spikes...DUH!

The reason why I said to leave it alone for a week.
When he adds ammonia it is being converted within 24 hours or less and the same with nitrite, so what's the problem again?

If you had instruments sensitive enough you will ALWAYS find traces of ammonia and nitrite in the water if there is live stock present.


To the OP, you tank is cycled, start picking out some fish, but go slowly and continue with the testing for the next month as you add livestock.

 

[Caliban07]

It's ok, most folks here don't agree with what I suggest, but I have been doing this for over forty years and I do have a pretty darn good handle on the whole thing.


and just who suggested he change methods mid-stream?

If you notice by looking at his readings and the timelines, his tank IS cycled, it's done, finished, finito, no longer in need of ammonia dosing.

That is what my post is saying. The tank is cycled, let it settle down for a week, do a big water change and then start adding fish.


Let me ask you Masha and Dalto, what else are you guys expecting the OP to see that indicates his tank is cycled??????????????

I think you mean me? Dalto didn't say anything about the cycle in question. I agree that the tank is cycled but it's difficult for the OP to see that because of the large amounts of water they are replacing and constant re-dosing of ammonia.

What I was trying to do was help the OP to see that the cycle is indeed complete by leaving the tank for a few days ending with readings that clearly indicate a complete cycle 0ppm ammonia 0ppm nitrite and some nitrates. I also believe some of the nitrate tests have been carried out incorrectly (very easy to get wrong) it gives a sense of relief and accomplishment when the person carrying out the fish less cycle (particularly newbies) can SEE the end product and I believe the guide is setup in a way that makes this very difficult for most people when you take in to consideration the the varying conditions from one persons tank to another.


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[PB_Smith]

I think you mean me? Dalto didn't say anything about the cycle in question. I agree that the tank is cycled but it's difficult for the OP to see that because of the large amounts of water they are replacing and constant re-dosing of ammonia.

What I was trying to do was help the OP to see that the cycle is indeed complete by leaving the tank for a few days ending with readings that clearly indicate a complete cycle 0ppm ammonia 0ppm nitrite and some nitrates. I also believe some of the nitrate tests have been carried out incorrectly (very easy to get wrong) it gives a sense of relief and accomplishment when the person carrying out the fish less cycle (particularly newbies) can SEE the end product and I believe the guide is setup in a way that makes this very difficult for most people when you take in to consideration the the varying conditions from one persons tank to another.


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nope, not you Caliban.
you and I are on the exact same page here. the part I emphasized is exactly what I have been saying.
true, I misread Dalto's post.

 

[Caliban07]

nope, not you Caliban.
you and I are on the exact same page here. the part I emphasized is exactly what I have been saying.
true, I misread Dalto's post.

Yeah I realised. Sorry for the confusion.


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[dalto]

Just to be totally clear. I agree that the tank is effectively cycled. The reason we are seeing nitrite readings is because the bacteria colony that consumes nitrite is not as large as the one for ammonia. That being said, given the amount of nitrates we are seeing here it is clear that it is more than large enough.

Do a 100% change and add fish.