Neon Tetras OK in hard water with high PH?

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RightTurnClyde

Aquarium Advice Freak
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My 10G tank is still cycling, but I'd really like to try stocking a school of neon tetras when it's ready. We have hard water and the PH in my tank is around 7.8 so far. Everything I read about neons say they like soft, slightly acidic water. Would they adapt OK if I really took my time in the acclimation process?
 
It honestly depends a lot on how hard are we talking. Do you have a city water quality report? If you aren't sure what to look for you can tell me a city and I can look for you. Or if you have a gH kit you can get an estimate (not as accurate as the city just telling you)

Biologically, neons can't handle super hard water. If you want the science explanation for why this is let me know, but otherwise I won't burden you with that.

If the tetras are bred in the water that you can use, they be more adaptable. You could ask your fish store where they come from. If they are wild and your water is very hard, they may not do well in the long term.
 
Threnjen, you're awesome. I'd actually love to hear the science behind it. That's part of why I'm liking this new hobby so much! :popcorn:

I don't have the GH liquid test, but I have some Tetra easy strips, and according to them, the color looks to be somewhere between 75 and 150 ppm. So I guess it's not "super" hard water, but I wouldn't call it soft. I live in San Anselmo, California, if you have a way to look it up. I'm not seeing anything on our water district's website.
 
OK well luckily this one is pretty simple so no long lectures this time ;)


Your water has some level of solids. This is expressed as Total Dissolved Solids in ppm. It’s kind of the same thing as your hardness – so your water MIGHT be 75-150ppm TDS. (we'll get to why it MIGHT be later)

With freshwater fish, water is absorbed right into the skin (along with going through the gills), so if there is a lot of TDS in the water this goes into a fish's body. The solids, which are a toxin in the body, are then processed out through the kidneys (just like what we do). A hard water fish is used to living in water with a lot of TDS so their kidneys are adapted to the work of quickly filtering out the toxins. A soft water fish is not well adapted to this filtering - their kidneys are equipped to live in water with really low TDS. When they are constantly bringing TDS into their bodies the kidneys have to work quite hard. So while a soft water fish can live in high TDS water, their longevity will inevitably be reduced. For some fish that are already weak, this can result in death. Hard water fish can adapt better to soft water than vice versa.

(OK I guess the lecture isn't over... I’m on a roll!)
There's interesting things to know about water "softness" and "hardness" when it comes to fish as opposed to the way we usually define it when talking about our drinking water.

For fish, “soft” water means water with low TDS. But it’s important to note that a test like the gH test is only testing for certain things in the water, namely calcium and magnesium, that are part of “general hardness”. These are the elements that make water “hard” by standard definitions, but they don’t include all possible dissolved solids. So it’s not really a full picture of your water’s TDS. Your water could test very “soft” on a gH test because it doesn’t have much calcium or magnesium, but be very high in TDS because it has lots of sodium, phosphates, potassium, fertilizer runoff, etc.

For our use drinking/bathing/etc when we consider water hard it means it has a lot of the “general hardness” minerals that make it unpleasant like magnesium and calcium. To make water “softer” for drinking/home use, we use minerals that actually make the water have HIGHER TDS. If you are running a water softener in your house, what it actually does is swap out the magnesium and calcium for sodium and it does this at a rate of TWO ions of sodium per ion of magnesium or calcium. So this means a “water softener” is actually producing water with 2X the TDS of the water that goes in! This means this water is WORSE for your fish than the water from your tap.

This is also why soft water fish do not tolerate salt that well. It is raising the TDS of the water and making it more difficult for them to osmoregulate.

If you really want the best possible read on your water when considering different fish, you need a TDS meter. These are very inexpensive, like this one from Amazon: HM Digital TDS-EZ Water Quality TDS Tester, 0-9990 ppm Measurement Range, 1 ppm Resolution, +/- 3% Readout Accuracy - Amazon.com
As it stands, if your water is 75-150 TDS, that’s pretty ok for Neons. They are rated ok for 50-150 TDS. And that's usually a conservative range, so they might still be ok above that. But do consider that
a) this is just gH, and your tap's actual TDS may be higher
b) if you plan to fertilize that your TDS will go up, so you’d want to go with a very conservative ferts plan.
 
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Wow! Great info, thanks for taking the time. Just when I think I'm getting a handle on all this, I learn something new. I'm starting to think I might be better served with some good ol' zebra danios to start things off, when the time (hopefully) comes.

I'm hoping this is the week when I finally see some nitrites!
 
Threnjen, I managed to find some water quality info from my water district. Looks like my TDS averages about 148. See below. You think Neons would be OK in that?

ImageUploadedByAquarium Advice1394141933.827927.jpg
 
Honestly, I think it'll be ok. I've been hitting my water with my TDS meter for the last few days with this in mind, and mine spikes close to 200 occasionally because of my ferts. My cardinals show stress very easily and obviously, but they are all as healthy and active as usual.
Of course it's hard to say how its really affecting them "deep down", but I would not say that your water is excessively hard.
 
Hi,

Just said I would chime in. I have really hard water ( I only have test strips for hardness and it is off the scale) and a ph of 8.
I have a 8 neons in my 45 gallon for about 3 months. They are doing great and I haven't lost any.
 
I also have high pH water from the tap 7.6 - currently have 7 neon tetras in a 55 gallon with no issues. They seem to love it especially around supper time!
 
Awesome. Thanks guys. Yeah, apparently our water is a mixture of local reservoir water and river water piped down from the county to the north of us. According to the district site it's about 75% reservoir and 25% river. So I guess it's not as hard as I perceive it to be. But I think those numbers I posted might be before any treatment, but they seem to tie in with the rough readings I get on my test strips. So I think I'll go for it.

Another question about neons: is it true that you can expect about 30% of them to die right away? Should I get a slightly larger school than I intend to stock? Or would it be better to just get a few more if too many die?
 
I've heard that you can get a lot of losses, but I was lucky and all mine survived.
 
Have you considered Cardinals? They are a little hardier than neons and less likely to keel over dead, from what I have heard (I have heard the same as you about them).
 
This was a great post, learned so much!! Thank you.

I must say my cardinals have been with me from the beginning. I was very new and naive. Had to do fish in cycle..., sho that was stressful for me, I had casualties, however never did I lose one cardinal tetra!!

Thank you again!!☺️
 
Hmmm... I would actually prefer cardinals, but most of what I read say they are less hardy. What is the truth? One thing I'm learning with this hobby is that it's really difficult to get accurate, real world profiles on fish species.
 
I would not put Cardinals in a 10g. Even Neons in a 10g is pushing it.

I would plant heavily. Add Indian Almond Leaf ( or a piece) and add some driftwood. The tannins will help lower ph in a non drastic way.

For such a small tank you can do PWCs with 1/2 tap& 1/2 RO or distilled if you want. That will lower your TDS and you ph AFAIK. I did this for my Shrimp.

My suggestion. Get TDS lower and look at Celestial Pearl Danios. You can put 6-7 in there easily and have room for Shrimp or tiny Cory habrosus or C pygmaeus.

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