New large setup, Q about water flow, sump, fuge

[Jimothy]

I am setting up a 180g tank with built in overflow and ramp/platform for freshwater turtles.
I have 3 red-eared sliders in a 45g with Fluval 405 set up now, the 180g is new and needs another week for the seals to harden. I hope to have everything set up by then, Saturday the 27th.

I have drawn up 2 options for the undertank setup and would love feedback on:
· Water flow through the system in general?
· In case of power outage, would these setups lead to flood?
· What type of plumbing, rigid or flexible?

· Water pump, submersed or external, what brand?

• Sump setup?
• Planted refugium?
• Snails and fish in display or sump?

setup1 or setup2

If pics are too small, also attached,
Thanks for looking

[Menagerie]

WOW! WELCOME to AA
I have no idea how to help you, but the planning you are putting into this tank is commendable!

[newfound77951]

I'm sure some of the reefies with overflows will chime in on the flow setup. I do know that these systems can be setup to not overflow in case of a power outage.

As far as a planted refugium goes, I have a friend with a turtle in a 40g breeder and he has a mangrove seedling in the tank for nutrient export. The mangrove is growing like crazy and appears to be doing a good job. Also, mangroves won't mind a lot of flow, if you were going to do a planted fuge you'd have to minimize the flow a bit, but any fast growing plant would probably work well for nutrient removal. Things like hygro and hornwort come to mind.

[Jimothy]

meagerie, thx for the welcome

newfound, thx for the info on plants...
I had assumed that there could not betoo much flow and that attempting to control it would lead to too little...
also, the mangrove... the turtles like to rip and shred soft things even when not eating them, does your friend keep the mangrove in a fuge or in display tank?

[OasisKeeper]

Originally Posted by Jimothy

· In case of power outage, would these setups lead to flood?
· What type of plumbing, rigid or flexible?

· Water pump, submersed or external, what brand?

I can give you some thoughts on these subjects.

First off, yes power outage will be a problem with the methods you are proposing. There are probably as many ways to do this as fishkeepers, but the one I describe does not depend upon mechanical or powered devices to prevent flooding. Consider;

Gravity drain from inside the overflow to the sump. A return pump from the sump to above the water level in the upper tank. This must either have an air gap above the water or a hole well above the water line to avoid a siphon.

The water levels are set with the pump off. The upper tank levels to the height of the overflow, the sump should be set with a small amount of head room.

When the main pump is started water rises above the overflow by the height required to meet the flow rate (probably less then an inch). The sump level will fall by the volume added to the upper tank plus what is required to fill the return hose from the pump to the tank.

When the power goes off, levels return to the original condition. On my setup I added a manual ball valve on the gravity drain of the overflow so I could isolate the tank if need for maintenance.

Hard pipe or hose, one is not better then the other depending the quality of the hose or pipe. Hose can certainly be easier to work with, just make sure the connections are well clamped.

Depending upon your fish, five turns or more an hour is often recommended for reef or fish. Not so sure about turtles or mixed use. So size the pump at tank volume plus sump volume times five (or so) at the head (height) between the bottom of the sump and the height of the outflow back into tank. This is important because a lot of pumps don't like that much lift and will produce much less flow when facing the pressure of a few feet of head. I don't think you will find this kind of power in a submersed pump but its been many year since I look for one this size.

Your canister must draw water from and return it to the same source, either the sump or the tank. If you set it up with flow from one to the other, you will be creating a potential siphon again.

Give this and your current diagrams some thought.

Best of luck.

[Jimothy]

I specified the holes, ramp, platform, and overflow to the manufacturer, though I overlooked the water-flow design and cannot easily return water from the canister filter to the tank.

I need water intake at the bottom and top of the display case and had originally wanted the canister filter to intake under the platform and the overflow box to take from the surface. Both then empty into the sump, the canister filter into the large center chamber (future refugium?) and the overflow drain pipe onto bioballs. Then a water pump returns to display tank through one line.

I have many questions....

• because of screen top, water will not be returned up and over the lip of the display, if the power fails, will water continue to flow down and through the canisterfilter and into the sump?
• when power fails, water can travel through water pump in reverse? are check valves really so faulty as to not rely on them?

• because of the pipe sizes, I wondered whether the in/out pipes should be 1"/2" or 2"/1"...
• if I have 2" bulkheads I should utilize the full diameter to maximize potential flow?

Here is more detailed design of overflow:

• the bulkheads that came with the tank are threaded bulkheads, would I make this easier on myself by replacing them with slip bulkheads?

• is it possible to run 2 lines through a single 2" bulkhead, that is: to split a 2" pipe and draw from the base of the display tank to the canister filter and return it above the water line?

• does water simply dump out of pipe into sump? Would a sump inlet be useful and if so, would using a Y PVC piece to separate a 2" drain pipe into two 1" sump inlets be good?

larger images are attached,
thanks for looking

[OasisKeeper]

Originally Posted by Jimothy

I have many questions....

• because of screen top, water will not be returned up and over the lip of the display, if the power fails, will water continue to flow down and through the canisterfilter and into the sump?
• when power fails, water can travel through water pump in reverse? are check valves really so faulty as to not rely on them?

Yep. The pump and canister flow can reverse without check valves. Now you have an idea of the problems. Some folks do use check valves. They all depend upon flappers and/or some kind of spring. Stuff can and does get caught on the valves surfaces. So a power failure and some crud in the valve.. how bad is 100 gallons of water on the floor and dead fish? I wasn't comfortable but then I worry about such things a lot.

• because of the pipe sizes, I wondered whether the in/out pipes should be 1"/2" or 2"/1"...
• if I have 2" bulkheads I should utilize the full diameter to maximize potential flow?

Once you know your flows, you can find some standard pipe size tables to get recommended pipe sizes. I suspect at 1000 gph or less, 1/2 inch will be good for most everything at pressure, and 1" at gravity. Look it up though. My memory ain't all that good.

the bulkheads that came with the tank are threaded bulkheads, would I make this easier on myself by replacing them with slip bulkheads?

personal preference but I would likely choose threaded in case I wanted to change something

is it possible to run 2 lines through a single 2" bulkhead, that is: to split a 2" pipe and draw from the base of the display tank to the canister

I haven't seen such a fitting. Possible, sure. Likely custom and $$$.

simply dump out of pipe into sump? Would a sump inlet be useful and if so, would using a Y PVC piece to separate a 2" drain pipe into two 1" sump inlets be good?

I dumped straight down into the sump. But I didn't have anything living in my sump, just equipment and instruments.

thanks for looking

Your welcome

[Jimothy]

Thanks for the feedback OasisKeeper, anyone else have any thoughts?