trotty
Aquarium Advice Freak
Phosphates are only one part of the equasion.... plants need more than that to survive, and like us need a good balance of nutrients for great health.
New member with a desperate story (please help!)
- Thread starter marchmaxima
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happygirl65
Aquarium Advice Addict
Maybe Bill is a superfish! 
I think you mentioned that you had a place to put Bill if you had to tear it down and start over.
Does this mean that you have another tank that has no problems?
Also, did you test your pH after letting your tap water sit? My pH from the tap is 6.5 but after sitting for a couple of hours it goes up to 8.0 and stays there. (But my KH at 7 degrees keeps it buffered)
My fish thrive in this water. Just as an example of how a high pH can be fine as long as it is stable.
Another thought (maybe it's way out there but I'll throw it out here just incase) do you have any small children around that could be putting something in the tank that they shouldn't? (My little girl can't stay away from our tanks and I had to put a heavy lid on one so she couldn't open it and put things in it.
I think you mentioned that you had a place to put Bill if you had to tear it down and start over.
Does this mean that you have another tank that has no problems?
Also, did you test your pH after letting your tap water sit? My pH from the tap is 6.5 but after sitting for a couple of hours it goes up to 8.0 and stays there. (But my KH at 7 degrees keeps it buffered)
My fish thrive in this water. Just as an example of how a high pH can be fine as long as it is stable.
Another thought (maybe it's way out there but I'll throw it out here just incase) do you have any small children around that could be putting something in the tank that they shouldn't? (My little girl can't stay away from our tanks and I had to put a heavy lid on one so she couldn't open it and put things in it.
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An t-iasg
Aquarium Advice Addict
Like trotty says, plants need more nutrients than just phosphate to grow well. Lighting and CO2 are factors to consider as well.
I have had high phosphate levels in the past as I was refining my dosing amounts. The fish were never harmed; however, if others in your area have reported high phosphates that harmed the fish, then it may be prudent to have the lfs test your phosphate levels in your tank water and tap water. It could be possible that very high P levels, day after day, could impact fish. My high levels were probably not all that high for any length of time. I tested daily and/or did water changes until I was confident that I reached a good dosing level.
I have had high phosphate levels in the past as I was refining my dosing amounts. The fish were never harmed; however, if others in your area have reported high phosphates that harmed the fish, then it may be prudent to have the lfs test your phosphate levels in your tank water and tap water. It could be possible that very high P levels, day after day, could impact fish. My high levels were probably not all that high for any length of time. I tested daily and/or did water changes until I was confident that I reached a good dosing level.
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
I doubt that phosphates on its own will cause fish death. PO4 usually comes from agricultural runoff, and it may be that reports of phosphate problems are actually due to "stuff" in the runoff associated with the PO4.
I've read the revised post on page 3 with the tap water test results. What is your tank's current pH & KH (and when was your last water change & how much). A comparision of tank & tap should be useful.
I've read the revised post on page 3 with the tap water test results. What is your tank's current pH & KH (and when was your last water change & how much). A comparision of tank & tap should be useful.
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
Maybe Bill is a superfish!
I think you mentioned that you had a place to put Bill if you had to tear it down and start over.
Does this mean that you have another tank that has no problems?
Also, did you test your pH after letting your tap water sit? My pH from the tap is 6.5 but after sitting for a couple of hours it goes up to 8.0 and stays there. (But my KH at 7 degrees keeps it buffered)
My fish thrive in this water. Just as an example of how a high pH can be fine as long as it is stable.
Another thought (maybe it's way out there but I'll throw it out here just incase) do you have any small children around that could be putting something in the tank that they shouldn't? (My little girl can't stay away from our tanks and I had to put a heavy lid on one so she couldn't open it and put things in it.
I have a spare tank I could set up with the current water in a pinch... It would be okay temporarily... I wouldn't want to leave Bill in it for too long.
I did test my tap water's PH after sitting in an open container for 24 hours. The results are on another page. My PH rose, but not at that sharp level.
Mine never rises sharply. Just a steady slow incline.
Good thought about the kids, but no. Just 2 irresponsible adults
Oh, and 2 cats. And the cats are the types that ignore the tank.
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
As of 2 mins ago, the tank water returned a PH reading of between 7.0 and 7.2.
With the KH, the 1st drop turned the water orange. I guess that means 1 dKH or 17.9 according to the conversion table.
The last PWC I did was 2/3 of the water on the 19th January. I remember quite specifically, because I needed to lift the tank so I could put it on a new cabinet and had to dump a heap of the water so I could lift it. It was the next day (Sunday 20th) that I purchased the aforementioned glow lights that went into the tank around 3pm and were all dead by 11pm.
I guess the water is stupendously soft and probably explains the gradual rise in PH??
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jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
Your water isn't quite behaving as I expected ....
Here's what we know:
1. The water is extremly soft. (KH of less than 1 degree with home test & water quality report).
2. There is no appreciable change in KH/GH after the water had equlilbrate with air. <Did the pH change much? that was a TBA on page 3.> This would rule out problems with dissolved gases.
3. Although the KH & GH is in the same range in the city water report, home tests shows GH quite a bit higher than KH. If the home test is correct, this difference would indicate the presence of an additional anion. However, at a level of maybe 50 ppm, I think the effect of this would be small (even if the anion is acting as a non-carbonate buffer), so I will ignore this for now.
4. The pH is the tank increases over time ... with no measurable KH increase. <This may not entirely be accurate, as your 2/3 pwc 2 weeks ago would have essentially reset your tank water, and the pH had only increased slightly, so the KH may not have risen enough to be measurable.>
Questions for all to think about:
1. Why is the pH increasing?
Although the water has little or no buffering capacity, so is prone to pH shifts, pH normally DECREASES in a tank. <Metabolic processes, the nitrogen cycle, all create acids .... we normally have to guard against pH crash.>
2. What is causing the pH shift?
This does not appear to be the usual carbonates (rocks, cc, etc.) dissolving into the tank water. I would expect a carbonate source in the tank to reach equilibrium PH within a day or 2 ... not weeks; and there is no KH rise.
3. Is the pH swing causing fish death?
With such a slow pH shift, most fish should be able to adapt. Although we can all agree that the water needs to be better buffered to ensure rock solid pH stability, will achieving this actually solve the problem? Am I missing something else?
I have a couple of ideas on how to buffer the water better .... but I would like to see if anyone else has other thoughts on this matter.
Here's what we know:
1. The water is extremly soft. (KH of less than 1 degree with home test & water quality report).
2. There is no appreciable change in KH/GH after the water had equlilbrate with air. <Did the pH change much? that was a TBA on page 3.> This would rule out problems with dissolved gases.
3. Although the KH & GH is in the same range in the city water report, home tests shows GH quite a bit higher than KH. If the home test is correct, this difference would indicate the presence of an additional anion. However, at a level of maybe 50 ppm, I think the effect of this would be small (even if the anion is acting as a non-carbonate buffer), so I will ignore this for now.
4. The pH is the tank increases over time ... with no measurable KH increase. <This may not entirely be accurate, as your 2/3 pwc 2 weeks ago would have essentially reset your tank water, and the pH had only increased slightly, so the KH may not have risen enough to be measurable.>
Questions for all to think about:
1. Why is the pH increasing?
Although the water has little or no buffering capacity, so is prone to pH shifts, pH normally DECREASES in a tank. <Metabolic processes, the nitrogen cycle, all create acids .... we normally have to guard against pH crash.>
2. What is causing the pH shift?
This does not appear to be the usual carbonates (rocks, cc, etc.) dissolving into the tank water. I would expect a carbonate source in the tank to reach equilibrium PH within a day or 2 ... not weeks; and there is no KH rise.
3. Is the pH swing causing fish death?
With such a slow pH shift, most fish should be able to adapt. Although we can all agree that the water needs to be better buffered to ensure rock solid pH stability, will achieving this actually solve the problem? Am I missing something else?
I have a couple of ideas on how to buffer the water better .... but I would like to see if anyone else has other thoughts on this matter.
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
I don't know if this information helps or is relevant, but I have never ever seen the PH decrease in this tank. I had sometimes wondered why I bothered purchasing the PH Up since I've never actually opened it.
The PH after 24 hours had a minor increase. I see I didn't update it. The edit icon has gone now, but it was between 6.6 and 6.8. No changes to Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate levels. They were all 0ppm.
An t-iasg
Aquarium Advice Addict
My thoughts on jsoong's question #1:
The tank only has one fish, a small tetra (I think) so no large bioload is creating the normal metabolic acids. The NO3 is 0 (a little puzzling...normally you'd see some nitrates). The normal nitrogen cycle may not be happening in this tank?
I know that marchmaxima's filter agitates the top of the water rather strongly. The tank has a glass top. But glass tops can tend to make the pH fall as the ambient CO2 stays trapped within the tank. This may only be relevant with CO2-injected tanks. Otherwise, the amount of CO2 trapped may be irrelevant. The constant water agitation could be pushing out all ambient CO2. However, as ambient CO2 is driven off, is that amount enough to cause a pH rise?
Edit: marchmaxima, I can edit your previous post if you like, to update your new pH value. Just tell me the post number and what to put in.
The tank only has one fish, a small tetra (I think) so no large bioload is creating the normal metabolic acids. The NO3 is 0 (a little puzzling...normally you'd see some nitrates). The normal nitrogen cycle may not be happening in this tank?
I know that marchmaxima's filter agitates the top of the water rather strongly. The tank has a glass top. But glass tops can tend to make the pH fall as the ambient CO2 stays trapped within the tank. This may only be relevant with CO2-injected tanks. Otherwise, the amount of CO2 trapped may be irrelevant. The constant water agitation could be pushing out all ambient CO2. However, as ambient CO2 is driven off, is that amount enough to cause a pH rise?
Edit: marchmaxima, I can edit your previous post if you like, to update your new pH value. Just tell me the post number and what to put in.
An t-iasg
Aquarium Advice Addict
I have edited marchmaxima's test results post per her request (#29 on page 3) -- Tap water dechlorinated with Nutrifin AquaPlus - After letting sample sit in room air for 24 hrs.
I was mixing up tank water vs. tap water in my previous post when I said I expected to see some nitrates. My mistake! You said your nitrate level in the tank is 10 ppm and that is fine. Your tank does appear to have a proper cycle.
I was mixing up tank water vs. tap water in my previous post when I said I expected to see some nitrates. My mistake! You said your nitrate level in the tank is 10 ppm and that is fine. Your tank does appear to have a proper cycle.
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
It's a [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica]Scissortail[/FONT][/FONT]. http://www.popular-freshwater-tropical-fish.com/fish/rasbora_trilineata.htm
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
I just completed a PWC where I replaced a third of the water in the tank.
In the process, I did 3 sets of tests. Thought posting the results might help establish a history of chemical behavior given the info on page 3 of this thread.
Tank water prior to 1/3 PWC
PH - 7.0
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 10 ppm
KH - 1 drop and the colour changed (how do you write this result?! The conversion chart has confused me)
GH - 6 drops and the colour changed
Water from the tap that replaced existing water (dosed with Nutrifin AquaPlus)
PH - 6.8
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 0 ppm (someone might argue that it wasn't 0. It was ALMOST the 0 colour, but someone else might have said that's not quite exactly right and given the result as 1 ppm. It was much closer to 0 ppm than 5 ppm.
KH - 1 drop and the colour changed
GH - 3 drops and the colour changed
Tank water - 30 mins after finishing the PWC
PH - 7.0
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - between 5 ppm and 10 ppm
KH - 1 drop and the colour changed
GH - 5 drops and the colour changed
No other additives used.
In the process, I did 3 sets of tests. Thought posting the results might help establish a history of chemical behavior given the info on page 3 of this thread.
Tank water prior to 1/3 PWC
PH - 7.0
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 10 ppm
KH - 1 drop and the colour changed (how do you write this result?! The conversion chart has confused me)
GH - 6 drops and the colour changed
Water from the tap that replaced existing water (dosed with Nutrifin AquaPlus)
PH - 6.8
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 0 ppm (someone might argue that it wasn't 0. It was ALMOST the 0 colour, but someone else might have said that's not quite exactly right and given the result as 1 ppm. It was much closer to 0 ppm than 5 ppm.
KH - 1 drop and the colour changed
GH - 3 drops and the colour changed
Tank water - 30 mins after finishing the PWC
PH - 7.0
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - between 5 ppm and 10 ppm
KH - 1 drop and the colour changed
GH - 5 drops and the colour changed
No other additives used.
I personally suspect that washing your hands with soap prior to working in the aquarium could easily be at least part of the problem. Generally I don't get near my aquairums until at least an hour after using soap or anything else on my hands that might harm the inhabitants. This includes lotions, creams, etc.
I'd stop using the windex on the glass top. If accidentally sprayed in the aquarium it could cause problems. Plain old vinegar is the best for cleaning aquarium glass as it won't harm the inhabitants if a small amount gets in the aquarium.
A final thought. How have you been acclimating your new fish purchases? If the water the fish are being kept in at the LFS is significantly different than your water, slower acclimation methods are a must.
I'd definately check for stray electrical currents as another member mentioned. Could be a simple fix of grounding your aquarium. Also would be good to check the Conductivity (TDS) of both your water and the LFS water. Significantly different TDS values also indicate the need for slow acclimation.
I'd stop using the windex on the glass top. If accidentally sprayed in the aquarium it could cause problems. Plain old vinegar is the best for cleaning aquarium glass as it won't harm the inhabitants if a small amount gets in the aquarium.
A final thought. How have you been acclimating your new fish purchases? If the water the fish are being kept in at the LFS is significantly different than your water, slower acclimation methods are a must.
I'd definately check for stray electrical currents as another member mentioned. Could be a simple fix of grounding your aquarium. Also would be good to check the Conductivity (TDS) of both your water and the LFS water. Significantly different TDS values also indicate the need for slow acclimation.
An t-iasg
Aquarium Advice Addict
I see...give my apologies to Bill!
Purrbox makes an excellent point! I thought you meant that you sprayed the glass table that the tank was on with Windex and not the tank's glass top. Definitely don't spray the glass tank top directly. Use vinegar on a paper towel. If you meant the glass table that the tank is on, I still wouldn't aim the spray at that - it's too close to the tank. Some water and vinegar would work well on that surface too.
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
Thanks for your reply Purrbox. I appreciate your input. I have already stopped washing my hands (with soap) prior to handling the tank and I won't be doing it again.
I've also stopped using the old bucket (for the PWCs) and bought a new one. While the old bucket hasn't been used for cleaning since I started using it for the tank, I guess there's always the distinct possibility that there might be impurities getting in by using an ex-cleaning bucket.
Never used any Windex on the glass top or any other cleaners for that matter. I just rinse it with water and dry it with a tea towel. If I gave the impression I use cleaners on the tank, I didn't mean to.
In the past, I have taken around an hour to introduce fish, but with the 5 glow lights I have mentioned that died in 5 hours, I took over 2 hours to introduce them and did it very slowly.
Okay.... Anyone got any pointers on how this would be done?
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
Oh I see... No, what I meant to communicate is that there is a glass top table near the tank. Well, sort of near the tank. The tank is against the wall and the glass top table is 3 meters away from the tank.
I use Windex on the glass top table to clean it. But I've always been conscious of the spray getting near the tank, so I usually spray the Windex on the cloth (shorter distance), and not spray it onto the table directly.
I've never used Windex on the tank itself or on the tank's glass top.
I'm not sure on how to test for electrical current in the aqarium. I've seen mentioned a couple times a long time ago, but don't remember the specifics. Okay I did a quick search on google and found this article.
For conductivity/TDS you just need one of those pen meters that measures that particular paramenter. I was able to pick up one for pH and one for TDS very inexpensively off of eBay. Here is an articles and another one about conductivity.
An t-iasg
Aquarium Advice Addict
Here are some links:
How to check for stray voltage: (It's from a saltwater site but the principles shoudl be the same) http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa101602.htm
Here's a piece of equipment to fix the stray voltage: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3728+3946&pcatid=3946
TDS (total dissolved solids) meter: http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/tds4tm.html
Click on "where to buy" at the bottom and you'll see a link for Australia. Click on that and then Products, Other Products to see their meter. But buying a meter like that may be a bit of overkill - you may find one cheaper elsewhere, or you could check to see if any of the lfs near you can do a TDS check.
How to check for stray voltage: (It's from a saltwater site but the principles shoudl be the same) http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa101602.htm
Here's a piece of equipment to fix the stray voltage: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3728+3946&pcatid=3946
TDS (total dissolved solids) meter: http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/tds4tm.html
Click on "where to buy" at the bottom and you'll see a link for Australia. Click on that and then Products, Other Products to see their meter. But buying a meter like that may be a bit of overkill - you may find one cheaper elsewhere, or you could check to see if any of the lfs near you can do a TDS check.
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marchmaxima
Aquarium Advice Addict
I purchased a voltage meter and today I checked for stray voltage.
The first time I tested, the voltage meter registered 0.7-0.8 when the setting for the meter was set to 200. It displayed 001 when the setting was at 700. I wasn't certain which one would give me the right reading so I tried both, but did the rest of the tests with the setting at 200.
I turned off all the appliances (heater, filter and fluro light) and it registered 0.0 as I expected.
Heater on only - 0.2 to 0.3
Filter on only - 0.3
heater & filter - 0.5 to 0.6
All appliances on - 0.7 to 0.9
I guess that means all the appliances are contributing to some stray voltage. But as stated in the article that Purrbox posted, it appears most tanks have at least some stray voltage, but it didn't state how much is considered acceptable (if any). Are my test results abnormal?
The solutions seem to be:
buy the grounding rod, which treat the symptoms, not the problem; or
remove the source of the problem.
Comments? In particular, anyone have any comments on this article?? http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
Do I replace all my equipment?!
The first time I tested, the voltage meter registered 0.7-0.8 when the setting for the meter was set to 200. It displayed 001 when the setting was at 700. I wasn't certain which one would give me the right reading so I tried both, but did the rest of the tests with the setting at 200.
I turned off all the appliances (heater, filter and fluro light) and it registered 0.0 as I expected.
Heater on only - 0.2 to 0.3
Filter on only - 0.3
heater & filter - 0.5 to 0.6
All appliances on - 0.7 to 0.9
I guess that means all the appliances are contributing to some stray voltage. But as stated in the article that Purrbox posted, it appears most tanks have at least some stray voltage, but it didn't state how much is considered acceptable (if any). Are my test results abnormal?
The solutions seem to be:
buy the grounding rod, which treat the symptoms, not the problem; or
remove the source of the problem.
Comments? In particular, anyone have any comments on this article?? http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
Do I replace all my equipment?!
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An t-iasg
Aquarium Advice Addict
I have never checked for stray voltage in my tanks. I suppose it makes sense that all tanks have some degree of stray voltage. It also makes sense that the article said the grounding probe will definitely create a voltage flow, probably by directing all the current toward it.
I think my hubby has a voltage meter. I'll have him test one of my tanks if he can. Maybe not today - it's Superbowl Sunday so we'll be busy! But if I can provide some test results for my tanks for you to compare to, I will try.
How old is your equipment? Some of my equipment is brand new, or up to 2 years old.
I think my hubby has a voltage meter. I'll have him test one of my tanks if he can. Maybe not today - it's Superbowl Sunday so we'll be busy! But if I can provide some test results for my tanks for you to compare to, I will try.
How old is your equipment? Some of my equipment is brand new, or up to 2 years old.
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