New Tank

[SittingDuck]

I've recently got back into the aquarium hobby after taking approx 6 years off due to lack of space in the place(s) we were living. A LOT has changed since I was last interested in running a tank (Especially the prices of fish!)

I've setup my aquarium approx 4 weeks ago and have left my filters running non stop to get the tank ready. It's a 130 Gallon aquarium with a 2217 eheim filter, a 250 Aquaclear filter and a....something, I don't know the brand name cause it's faded off (it's over 10 years old), 40 gallon filter with a protein skimmer (Total filtration approx 200 Gallons).

I recently picked up a test kit and the pH level is pretty high at 7.5. I am NOT a fan of cichlids as I find them to be too aggressive. I'm more into the community based tank with Tetras and easy going fish.

I also picked up a new 300 Watt heater that is totally submerssable, and suprisingly enough, has raised the temp of the water to 81 degrees. It's placed at the center bottom of the tank with the cord running up the side (Any ideas on what I can use to hide it? It really is ugly).

I also plan in having a planted aquarium and after doing a lot of reading I have found that in order to both lower the pH consistantly, and keep it lowered, and to have a healthy planted tank it will require a C02 system of some kind. I'm not willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a C02 system, or continually dump money into keeping the C02 system running (buying replacement C02 canisters every 2 weeks for example). The "Pop bottle" solution makes me nervous because it seems like a LOT of work having to replace the baking soda, yeast and sugar every couple of days...also having it sitting in a "Warm" aquarium doesn't appeal to me as I have young kids who would most likely try to bathe in anything that isn't covered.

I have sufficient lighting for plants with over 600 Watts in four florescent bulbs...however these lights are rather old and I haven't replaced them from the first time I bought the tank over 10 years ago.

So a couple of questions:

1. What is a good pH level for the types of fish that I have mentioned above and what is the best way for me to keep the pH at that level? I've read that chemical treatment is a temporary fix, so I don't want to be adding chemicals if they aren't going to help.

2. What C02 system would be a good solution? I'm not worried about a DYI approach, just looking for one that will be the easiest to implement and most cost effective.

3. I've been reading on this site about "Cycling" the tank with our without fish. What does that mean? About 10 years ago we used to have to "Sacrifice" a fish by putting it in the tank when it was almost ready and letting it die to get the tank ready for fish. Is this what Cycling the tank means?

4. What is the prime temperature of the aquarium to support Tetras and other community fish? I've read between 76 and 81 degrees, but it doesn't specify which types of fish thrive at 81 degrees and which ones don't. Is 81 degrees too high for plants?

5. With initial setup of the tank is it recommended to do the periodic water changes of 25% even though the tank isn't established yet, or is it safer to add fish and do the maintenance once the fish are in there?

If anyone has any suggestions or comments I would love to hear them. As I mentioned a LOT has changed since I was last in the hobby and I feel like a n00bie.

 

[Billsgate]

1. A pH of 7.5 should be okey for most fish, but if you want to lower your pH in a natural way, you should add peat to the filter, and renew it every 2 months or so. I don't know how much it will lower your pH, but it does a good job.

2. I don't use CO2, but I think you may need it with that much lighting, although I'm not sure, maybe ask this question in the planted section?

3. That is indeed what cycling a tank means. read this article for full explination: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=21
Your tank has been running for four weeks, so it is possible that it's cycled. If it is, then you should see 0 Ammonia, 0 nitrIte and some (10-40) nitrate.
Nowadays allot of people cycle their tanks with pure ammonia, or raw shrimp, instead of a live fish.

4. 81 is not too high for plants, and a good temperature to keep most community fish. I would if I were you, get another 200 W heater maybe, just in case the other fails. And also if the temperature drops too low in your house you may find that one 300W heater will not be enough to heat 130 gal

5. You can start changing water as soon as you see that your tank is cycled. 25% of 130 gal= 32.5 gallons each week? Wow, are you going to haul buckets every week or what I suggest you get a python to do the changes

Welcome to AA!!!


HTH

 

[SittingDuck]

5. You can start changing water as soon as you see that your tank is cycled. 25% of 130 gal= 32.5 gallons each week? Wow, are you going to haul buckets every week or what I suggest you get a python to do the changes

Ya, I like that idea! Question though....doesn't the water have to be treated before it enters the tank? Does the python dump the tap water directly into the tank or is it conditioned before the water enters? I checked this link for info:

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19259;category_id=2001

Your tank has been running for four weeks, so it is possible that it's cycled. If it is, then you should see 0 Ammonia, 0 nitrIte and some (10-40) nitrate.
Nowadays allot of people cycle their tanks with pure ammonia, or raw shrimp, instead of a live fish.

Yes, I always found that sacrificing a fish was barbaric. So if I pickup some raw shrimp would one of those frozen shrimp packages from the grocery store be enough? Or should I look at my local fish store for a better solution?

4. 81 is not too high for plants, and a good temperature to keep most community fish. I would if I were you, get another 200 W heater maybe, just in case the other fails. And also if the temperature drops too low in your house you may find that one 300W heater will not be enough to heat 130

I have another heater that was used in a 35 Gallon Aquarium that I was thinking of using as a backup. It won't be enough for a long term solution, but it should be enough as a temp fix to hold the tank for 12 to 24 hours when I run out and get a new heater (If the one I have breaks). Would you suggest a bigger heater than that?

1. A pH of 7.5 should be okey for most fish, but if you want to lower your pH in a natural way, you should add peat to the filter, and renew it every 2 months or so. I don't know how much it will lower your pH, but it does a good job.

So Tetras are acceptable with a pH at this level? I would be safe to go ahead and start populating with barbs or neons?

I will post my question about the C02 in the other forum. Thanks! You've been a great help!

 

[TankGirl]

Welcome to Aquarium Advice, SittingDuck!

You can go ahead and get your tank started with just about any fish that you take a fancy to. If you are getting back into it after a long absence and want a relatively low-tech tank, put the notion of pH in the very back of your mind. You can have all kinds of fish in that pH without any trouble. I have about the same pH and have kept angels, rams, gouramis, tetras of all kinds, rainbows, livebearers of all kinds, plecos, cats, etc. Not to worry.

You can also have plants and depending on what kind of lighting you have you can have a very nice, easy planted tank. What I did years ago was to get some attractive silk plants and use them to hide filter intakes and heaters, and as my plants grew in I slowly moved out the silk. There are also very nice looking fake driftwood structures and rock structures you can get to hide equipment.

The Python is probably going to save you quite a bit of hassle for a tank that size, and it is perfectly safe to add dechlorinator to the tank as it fills - that's what I have been doing for years.

I prefer to cycle a tank with pure household ammonia, since you have so much control over how much goes in and there is no stink like you can have with a prawn rotting in there. If there is nothing in the tank now producing any waste then you do not have a cycled tank - just a box of water.

Here is an article on fishless cycling: http://hjem.get2net.dk/Best_of_the_Web/fishless cycling.html

 

[SittingDuck]

After reading through that article (Which was great BTW) it mentions using Live Plants or filter materials from an established healthy aquarium. Is this an option to help speed up the cycling process or a replacement to adding the ammonia?

 

[TankGirl]

Live plants will certainly help but you would need a higher light, CO2 injected and nutrient-dosed setup for this to eliminate the cycle. For typical lighting situations (stock hood lighting) plants will not be harmed by the cycle but will not eliminate it or impact it in a dramatic way, but that is purely my own experience, and others may have different experiences than I. Plants, to me, are almost always a good idea, and there are so many good choices even for the lowest light tanks (java fern, java moss, Anubias sp., crypts, etc.).

Filter floss, the really dark brown long-overdue-to-be-changed stuff, is wonderful for seeding a new tank. Use that in your filter and feed ammonia daily as normal and you can shave a week or two off the cycle. Bacteria needs to be fed, though, and you will still see some spikes of ammonia and nitrite, so I prefer not to add the fish until the abbreviated cycle is done. The caveat here is that you need to trust the source of the seed material. Often it is recommended to see if your LFS will give you some, but IMO that runs the very high risk of introducing parasites and/or disease into your tank, so I am not a fan of this. If you know someone who has healthy fish that is the best source. Later, you can use your own from one of your tanks.

 

[TomK2]

The Ugly heater problem can be solved with a little cash if you have a canister filter. Hydor makes a heater that goes in line with your canister outflow line, so no heater in the tank. I have one for three months now, and i like it. Just look one up online at petsolutions.com or bigalsonline.com, cost about 55 bucks. I put it up for review in the review section of AA too. You would need the 300watt model.

 

[JohnPaul]

To answer one question you had about heaters, I was always under the impression your heater should be 5 watts per gallon of water you have. And for any tank over 50 gal, it's better to have two heaters (each approx. half of the total you need) and put them in opposite ends of the tank. That does two things--it helps to eliminate cool zones you might have at the sides if you only have one heater in the middle, and, in the event of a catastrophic failure of one heater, the second one should be able to prevent a massive drop in temperature long enough for you to get to a lfs to buy a replacement.

My own opinion, probably not shared by others, would be to hold off on real plants until your tank is cycled. The reason for this is that usually detecting the presence of nitrates is what signals to you that your cycle is complete; but if you have a bunch of plants, they will suck up the nitrates as fast as they are being produced, and so it might be harder to know when you are through. Plus, plants need nitrates to grow, so if the tank takes a LONG time to cycle, then your plants will be starving in the meantime. If you have a loca source for Bio-Spira, you could consider jump-starting your cycle that way.

As for fish temperatures, do a Google search for each individual fish, very soon you will find lots of pages giving specific temp preferences for each species.

Last, as for plants, from what I have read, it basically seems the more light you have, the more likely it is you need CO2. It sounds to me (haven't done this yet myself) that if you choose very low-light plants and keep your aquarium lighting low, you might be able to grow them without needing to add CO2 at all. Perhaps someone else who has tried this could chime in here.

Keep us posted on your progress!

 

[TankGirl]

There are lots of plants you can grow without CO2 - and most commonly available aquarium fish do fine anywhere from 78-80. I keep white cloud minnows in 80F and even though they technically prefer much cooler temps (upper 60's, low 70s) mine have been with me for going on 5 years.

I agree that two heaters for larger tanks is preferable, to keep the heating more evenly distributed, and since heaters are known to go on the fritz from time to time it is good to have more than one. If you ever need to raise the temp of your tank to treat ich or other parasites you'll need two heaters to get the temps up, even though it is temporary.

 

[apotocki]

I'll second Tom2K's advice on getting an in-line heater. I just set-up a 70 gallon this past week-end using a Rena XP3 canister and the Hydor 300w in-line heater. I set the thermostat at 78 and it is a rock solid 78 degree's in the tank.
You can get this heater at: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=11369&N=2004+22787
for $43.99 as it is on sale!
But......with your tank size, it may not be large enough but you could try it. then, no more unsightly submersible heater in the tank and you could use it for a back-up.

Alan

 

[SittingDuck]

Question about water changes....It's probably a silly question but I thought I'd ask anyways...When doing a water change and adding dechlorinator to the water, do you add enough dechlorinator for the amount of water that you're putting in, or for the entire size of the aquarium? Meaning, if I'm doing a 30 gallon water change, should I add dechlorinator for 30 gallons or for the entire 130 gallons in the tank?

I initailly thought it was for the entire 130 gallons, but I don't want to be adding more chemicals than needed if I don't have to....

 

[TankGirl]

The general rule is that if you are adding the dechlorinator to the tank as you are filling it with new water (like when using a Python) you use enough dechlorinator to treat the entire tank. If you are adding pre-treated water change water (bucket method) then you only need enough dechlor for the water you are adding.

 

[SittingDuck]

Update:

I was unable to aquire any ammonia. I checked three different grocery stores and everything they had was lemon scented or contained other ingredients that would cause a cycling process to fail.

So I went out and bought 10 fish. I got 4 Velvet Swords and 6 Sunset Moon Platies. The guy at the LFS said they should be hardy enough to complete the cycling process.

I tested my water with a test kit yesterday and here are the results:

Ammonia: .50 ppm
pH: 7.6
Nitrite: Between .25ppm
Nitrate: Between 40ppm and 80ppm

To me, that looks off...Should I be doing frequent water changes to get those levels down? Or should I just leave it and continue to do partial changes once a week still? I did a water change yesterday before doing a test, left if for 8 hours and those above results were what were displayed.

So far, my fish look fine...they're not exhibiting any behaviour that makes me worried, but are they going to be poisoned if they are continually exposed to those toxic levels?

 

[TankGirl]

I would try to keep your ammonia .5 and under, and keep your nitrite 0.25 and under, and don't worry about the nitrate at this point, or pH for that matter. These levels are going to be hard on the fish but there is no other way to cycle the tank, other than an artificial source of ammonia, like a raw shrimp or plain old fish food.

You will likely wind up doing 2-3 water changes a week, but even 10 fish in a 130 is a very light load so it may take a while.

 

[SittingDuck]

I think I've finally done it. Here's my test results:

Ammonia: 0.25 or possibly 0, depending on how I angle the light on the test tube.
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 40 ppm

So, should I be seeing algae growth at this point to know that I've got a cycled tank? I don't have a fleck of it in there....Do the test results look like my tank is ready to start populating with additional fish? The ammonia may be higher than 0 because I've been feeding twice a day with quite a bit of food just to keep the Ammonia up...I'm gonna start cutting back once the tank is cycled.

 

[kaaikop]

By no means, I am no expert, but I'm also gonna try the Hydor inline heater.
I have (still in the planning) a 150G tank, with Eheim filter with integrated heating
(210W) and I'm just afraid that it might not be enough (cold here in Mtl, hey!)

Anyway, I bought it here (Cdn): www.mops.ca (the link does not work
because it takes the ".ca" for calcium...

Good luck with your project, keep us posted!

 

[Jchillin]

I would wait until you are absolutely 0 on the NH3. If you have yellow, it is 0. Congratulations on your newly cycled tank!

Weekly testing is paramount at this point. Test your levels prior to adding and then one day after. Your first algae bloom will be the brown diatom variety...no problem if you have algae eaters. If not, reduce feedings and lighting hours.

 

[SittingDuck]

I don't have any algae eaters at this point cause I was afraid to add anything to a non-cycled tank that wasn't hardy enough to handle it. I added 2 live plants just to see how it would do (They're actually thriving, I'm impressed!) so I don't want to add a pleco because I heard it will eat the plants if it doesn't have any algae. This might also be why I don't have algae in the tank.

One is an Amazon Sword the other is Japanese Dwarf Rush.

I've been doing PWC every two days and testing inbetween. I'll keep this up until I get a level of 0 then I'll change the PWC to once a week. Too many buckets at this point.

I would love to add an algae eater or a pleco, what would anyone recommend that won't eat my plants? I already have algae pellets so I can suppliment their diet if needed.

Kaaikop...Ya, I've looked into those and they are a very good idea. I've got a few other things I want to get first, like a python, and then I'm gonna look into the inline heater a little more. THanks for the link!

 

[TankGirl]

If you have any doubt about the ammonia reading, test it side by side with plain tap water and you should be able to tell the difference. I'm inclined to say that if you are doubtful then there might be just a touch of amber to the test result, and a bit more time is indicated, but test against a known zer-ammonia source and that'll reassure you.

Plants do not mind the cycle whatsoever, because they actually will uptake ammonia and the toxins for fish don't harm them a bit.

I would not add an algae eater until you start seeing algae, maybe months from now. This way the tank is stable and mature and there will be a good food source. Once they get the algae under control then you can start supplementing with wafers and fresh veggies. Rubberlip plecos and bristlenose plecos, as well as clown plecos will not harm plants at all.